Hit Song Formula.

[grumblepig]

1 minute ago, Nunstummy said:

If the goal is to craft a popular song, wouldn’t you want the MOST common and well liked chord progression?

Let’s face it.  We might not like what’s popular.  I know I don’t.

One of my goals as a songwriter is, indeed, to have a hit! But I only write on my own terms. I shy away from chord progressions that feel too easily familiar, progressions that feel like they already know where they're supposed to go. Using the AI assistant was a curious trick. Like I said, it - on its second attempt - came up with progressions I'd not used before, and I've written a thousand songs or wot. Anything that jump-starts my hands/brain into doing something new/unfamiliar is worth my time. 

[grumblepig]

12 minutes ago, gacki said:

Ideally you'd want something that is both familiar and also stands out; read: incorporates something uncommon.

Something that sounds simply natural, right? No matter what chords are involved, no matter how progressive or simple the progression, something that just sits in the ear as if it fell from space as a complete thought... 

[FLH3]

Comfort, to come and stay in,  and surprise to be, well, surpised and consequently interested in what could come in next.

Maybe like a rude/crude word in a perfectly constructed and old fashioned sentence or a very uncomon image in a book.

[Nunstummy]

It’s a battle between familiar and unique sounding.  I maintain that many hit songs had such a distinguishable sound upon their release, they became popular. Take the intro drums & guitar, then “Woohoo” of Blur - Song 2. Or the guitar intro of RHCP - Under The Bridge.  You instantly know those songs with only a few seconds of audio.  But, in most cases the chord progression is NOT special.  It’s a certain sound that defines the hit.  Phil Collins - Something In The Air will always be the reference for gated, reverb, 80’s drums.  Nobody cares about the chord progression.

[gacki]

22 minutes ago, Nunstummy said:

Nobody cares about the chord progression.

I do. And back then it seems more people did.

Here's the #1 US hits of 1980.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Billboard_Hot_100_number_ones_of_1980

A large number of those has what I'd call somewhat more complex chord progressions.

Here's 1990:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Billboard_Hot_100_number_ones_of_1990

Still harmonically interesting in many ways.

And today?

[FLH3]

An other thing to take in account is music is not only "English speaking pop songs". Intro-verse-chorus-bridge-verse-chorus-outro.

Billions of people never even heard what you/we are talking about. And they don't care about US Hits and Billboard.

Billions. Some take cares about different tunings, where the concept of "chord progression" is totaly uknown, some others about poetry in the words, and not only vanilla-love/desire subjects,  etc etc... (Furthermore those billions of people don't understand the English speaking lyrics maybe for the better as the sound does everything, I don't know 🙂  )

We have to be careful about our reference point. Maybe it's not the point.

(And I suspect it's the same  thing with other artforms, but as we're musician stick to the subject 🙂  ).

Edited March 21, 2023 by FLH3

[gacki]

At least in Germany it's pretty much the same as in the US. Different songs, same issues.

 

 

[Nunstummy]

12 minutes ago, FLH3 said:

An other thing to take in account is music is not only "English speaking pop songs". Intro-verse-chorus-bridge-verse-chorus-outro

Yes! Absolutely.  In North America we’re naively centred on our experience in the local music business.  Meanwhile, there are billions of potential listeners in other parts of the world.  I’ve often thought “what kind of song could I write for the Chinese population?  What do they want to hear?”  The effort required to get 50,000 streams in Canada (where I live) is insane.  Whereas 50,000+ stream in China might take only 24 hours, just because there are so many people!

Furthermore, there are countries 30 years behind in musical exposure.  A 70’s sounding guitar rock song is buried in North America with been-there-heard-that.  But in some emerging markets, it sounds brand new.

[MikeRobinson]

"Maybe, we're just beginning to over-complicate this thing."  Very obviously, there is a "musical industry" which, in various genres, simply requires "a very steady supply of product."  Country artists are going to crank out endless repetitions of songs in which "girl" gets into a "pickup truck" to go "down by the river," etcetera.  Satellite radio always needs something new to play.

But then, "something unexpected happens."  It might be musically different or lyrically different or both, but it is inevitably "truly(!) different."

For instance: "Jolene." ...  "Bohemian Rhapsody" ... "Stairway to Heaven" ... "Black Velvet." ... "Can't Fight the Moonlight." ... the original songs. The very rare ones that were musically interesting and challenging.

Edited March 23, 2023 by MikeRobinson

[Little Fat Bloke]

We could be talking hooks? As in when something musical just stays in your head?  Pop songs are littered with them (Kylie's 'Can't Get You Outta My Head' springs to mind).

[gacki]

I wouldn't limit this to hooks; a specific "sonic fingerprint" could also help.

Take for example "Owner of a lonely heart": While it has a great riff (and interestingly the chorus doesn't stick as strongly for myself) there are numerous other things. The sampled drum fill in the intro, the sudden "brass hit" stabs, the harmonizer guitar solo in fifths which suddenly switches to a picked guitar and so on. All those things were pretty new and unique at this point and are all memorable.

 

 

[Nunstummy]

1 hour ago, Little Fat Bloke said:

(Kylie's 'Can't Get You Outta My Head' springs to mind

That's a visual hook - not musical. lol!

[Little Fat Bloke]

19 hours ago, gacki said:

Take for example "Owner of a lonely heart"

Trevor Horn, wasn't it?

It is a good riff, but I don't know the song well enough to have noticed the things you mentioned.

But that is one thing I like about Trevor Horn's work, you always expect the unexpected. Synth stabs, vocal harmonies, guitar riffs etc, there is always something that you don't seem to notice until after you've heard the recording many many times. This is probably why I like 'Pet Sounds' so much!

[Nunstummy]

This thread started out slow, but I’m glad to see the sharing of opinions - it’s a great community.

My theory was that you can get all the elements of a hit song based on statistics and algorithms on the web, but whether you choose to apply them is a personal thing.  ChatGPT makes it even easier.  We all admire different artists and bands - and those of us over 50 have quite a legacy of performing, recording and possibly song writing from which to pull.

I have no doubt there are producers and record companies fixated on crafting songs designed to be hits - from a revenue point-of-view.  I mean Dr Dre is a billion, not by accident. Frankly, I don’t like most of the top 50 according to Spotify or Apple Music.  You can hear which songs are designed for sales, because they’re similar to other hit songs and seem to lack originality.  There’s definitely a hit formula at play here. Seems like more of the same to me!!!

But there are also high integrity artists doing what they do, that occasional have a hit for all the right reasons.  Dedication, creativity, talent, the right time and place. If you ignore number of streams as the criteria of “good” you find some great music with just 1,000 - 50,000 streams.  Authentic and original songs with a reason and artistic expression.  It’s awesome!

[Little Fat Bloke]

There has long been a sort of conveyor belt churning out commercialised pap for the teen market, that will probably never change. From Larry Parnes up to Simon Cowell, t'was ever thus.

Fads come and go but a good song will always be the bedrock, the foundation of the industry. That is what we as songwriters/producers do, aspire to create a piece that will stand the test of time. Maybe not intentionally, but subconsciously we want our creations to stand out: we want our music to be acknowledged by a world-wide audience and we want to enjoy the accolades that come from such success.

But achieving all that is not particularly the goal we have in sight, it's not really what any of us are about. I don't know of anybody who fires up Logic Pro with the sole intention of trying to write a successful hit song (four on the floor, handclaps, obligatory key change etc). We open up Logic and create, that is the important thing. Creating. Maybe at the end of the day you listen to what you've been working on and decide it's too awful for words and so you discard it with a sheepish grin on your face - we've all been there. But at least you have utilised your time creatively.

 

Taxi drivers drive taxis around all day, plumbers go around plumbing all day, politicians go around lying all day, we go around being creative all day.

 

Gentlemen, this is our lot.

[grumblepig]

Rather than spending too much time griping about the state of modern pop - the auto-tuned stuff we seem to be referencing - I thought I'd share something by a friend of mine. And she's a Logic user. I feel fortunate to know so many people who write stunning pop music. And it's not always the over-50 set. Rosie Abbott is 40, I think, and raised on her dad's fab record collection. She, like me and a few others on earth, is a Beatles obsessive, yet isn't writing anything I'd call "throw back" material. The song I'm sharing is as contemporary as anything - and at least in my world, sounds like a hit. 

 

[grumblepig]

Here's another "shoulda been a hit," right? Inspired by the Corpus clock in Cambridge, UK. The Corner Laughers, led by Karla Kane have made impeccable pop for a few years now. (I'm singing harmonies on this one, I'm very pleased to say...)

 

 

[Little Fat Bloke]

What a talented lady. Brilliant stuff. Much respect to her.

 

It is heart-warming to know there are others out there writing songs which could have been written many years ago, but sound as fresh and as 21st century as you can get.

Production work sounding excellent, too. I hope this lady goes a long way.

[Dox]

On 1/25/2023 at 11:05 AM, Little Fat Bloke said:

Are things like this any good for 'thinking outside the box' when it comes to chord structures?

I'm becoming more and more frustrated with my lack of adventure when putting a chord sequence together. If I write a song in G then C - D - Em - Bm etc will inevitably make an appearance, and when I'm only using guitars, bass and drum patterns, things quickly begin to start sounding stale and predictable.

Can I suggest that you get a copy of this:

 

How to Write Songs on Guitar: A Guitar-Playing and Songwriting Course

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0879309423/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Dox

[Little Fat Bloke]

9 out of 10.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-15/google-ai-music-quiz-musiclm-humans-artificial-intelligence/101967746?utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared

[MikeRobinson]

Articles like this merely point out that much of "pop industrial" music has indeed become "algorithmic," and therefore utterly predictable.  (The Chattahoochee River near Atlanta is probably running out of places where girls wearing "tight-fitting jeans" can go "down to the river" to meet some stud in a "pickup truck.")  It's become so predictable that even a computer algorithm can do it, if sufficiently drowned with "inputs."

However, the one thing that has endlessly attracted me to "music" is its positively-endless variety and creativity.  Indeed, every single memorable "industry trend" that has ever occurred has never been "an original thought of" said industry.  It always came out of the blue, and took everybody else by surprise.  May this always continue!

[Nunstummy]

On 3/30/2023 at 1:43 PM, grumblepig said:

and at least in my world, sounds like a hit. 

Not a chance today.  It has way too many musical elements, like rhythm, melody, theme, lyrics and feel. 

[Dox]

3 hours ago, Nunstummy said:

Not a chance today.  It has way too many musical elements, like rhythm, melody, theme, lyrics and feel. 

Did Billie Eilish's 'Bury A Friend' not have all these elements?