Problem with less volume by bounced track (WAV 32 bit), then my current project with playback.

[just20]

I bounced my track to 32 bit WAV Sample Rate 44,1 and compared with my current project/song and the bounced track/song as reference.

What I noticed is that the volume of my bounced track has less volume then my current project/song with playback?
Also what I for example noticed is in ADPTR Metric AB plug-in, is that my current project have a lot of true peaks but no peaks in the red on the stereo output fader. I have also nothing on my master stereo output, no plug-ins on my stereo output.

I bounced in Offline and Realtime and there is no difference. I also need to send my song to a mastering engineer, I really want to know what is going on or what I'm doing wrong. Can someone please help me.
 

Edited July 16, 2022 by just20

[triplets]

Make sure Normalize is Off in the bounce dialog.

[just20]

1 hour ago, triplets said:

Make sure Normalize is Off in the bounce dialog.

The Normalize is Off in the bounce dialog, but still when I have Normalize Off I hear my bounced song softer then when I playback my project.

Edited July 16, 2022 by just20

[Atlas007]

Where did you bounce from?

OTOH, perhaps there is a (3rd party) plugin in the project that alters the output level during the bounce… 

[just20]

1 hour ago, Atlas007 said:

Where did you bounce from?

OTOH, perhaps there is a (3rd party) plugin in the project that alters the output level during the bounce… 

Bounce from the stereo output right in the corner, but I turned everything off on my stereo output.

On the other hand I have 2 gain plug-ins on my stereo output what is turned off. I have for example ADPTR METRIC AB, Fabfilter 2 Pro L, Inflator, Ozone Imager and metering plug-ins on my stereo output, but everything is turned off.

[triplets]

What if you bounce 24-bit?

And make sure your Master Fader, not Stereo Out, is at zero dB.

Edited July 17, 2022 by triplets

[Atlas007]

As @triplets suggested but also consider this:

 

7 hours ago, just20 said:

Bounce from the stereo output right in the corner, but I turned everything off on my stereo output.

On the other hand I have 2 gain plug-ins on my stereo output what is turned off. I have for example ADPTR METRIC AB, Fabfilter 2 Pro L, Inflator, Ozone Imager and metering plug-ins on my stereo output, but everything is turned off.

 

Even turned off, some plugins might affect the bounce processing.

Thus I would try removing all those plugins from your stereo output channelstrip before bouncing.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Atlas007

[just20]

8 hours ago, triplets said:

What if you bounce 24-bit?

And make sure your Master Fader, not Stereo Out, is at zero dB.

 

5 hours ago, Atlas007 said:

As @triplets suggested but also consider this:

Even turned off, some plugins might affect the bounce processing.

Thus I would try removing all those plugins from your stereo output channelstrip before bouncing.

I tried both with non results unfortunately.

What I noticed is when I have my Stereo Output on -0,0 DB Full Scale and bounce my project to WAV and after that I put this WAV in the project, the volume is almost the same on the meter (on the meter a small value difference) and my ears.

But when I put my Stereo Output on, for example what I did on -2,0, and bounced my track again to WAV and put it in my Logic project again the volume is quite less then my project with playback my project. beside the perception of my ears, also 
the meter shows less RMS and less True Peak.

Also the reason why I am take the Stereo Output fader down is for take everything out of the red, and to create headroom for the mastering engineer.

Edited July 17, 2022 by just20

[fuzzfilth]

If you play *any* file through a Stereo Out that is set to -2dB, it will be 2dB less loud than before. Because the Stereo Out will reduce it by 2 dB.

[just20]

54 minutes ago, fuzzfilth said:

If you play *any* file through a Stereo Out that is set to -2dB, it will be 2dB less loud than before. Because the Stereo Out will reduce it by 2 dB.

But my project is - 2,0 db stereo output so the WAV must be even loud as the project. Because I bounce my project with - 2,0 db on the stereo output fader.

 And the WAV is less loud then my project with same level on the stereo output fader. 

Also the RMS of the bounced WAV is also lower then the project.

I checked when i dropped my track in the project, but also compared in the ADPTR METRIC AB plug-in 

[fuzzfilth]

No. If the project itself is -8, and the Stereo Out fader sits at -2, the bounce of the project will be -10. Now, if you put the bounced file into that same project, the Stereo Out fader will make you listen to it at -12.

[triplets]

5 hours ago, just20 said:

Also the reason why I am take the Stereo Output fader down is for take everything out of the red

Remember that once you hit the red, you're only adding digital distortion, it's not getting any louder because 0dBFS on the Stereo Out is the digital ceiling. So when you lower the fader, you're actually lowering the volume and reducing distortion.

[just20]

5 hours ago, fuzzfilth said:

No. If the project itself is -8, and the Stereo Out fader sits at -2, the bounce of the project will be -10. Now, if you put the bounced file into that same project, the Stereo Out fader will make you listen to it at -12.

 

So if I understand your right:
If the project is -1,1(see screenshot) And my stereo out fader is -2,0 the bounce will be -1,1 + -2,0 = -3,1 Do I interpret this right?

And when I put this bounce (WAV) back in the project and stereo output fader is still -2,0, the peak level should be -1,1+ -2,0 + -2,0 = -5,1(the output fader takes now another -2,0), right?

I did a test I bounced the project to WAV with these values. Then I put the WAV into the project and set my fader on 0,0 DB Full Scale(So he wil not take a -2,0,  so the WAV track must have now the same loudness/volume as the project).

The perception of my ears say that the project and the bounced WAV have now the same volume, however, the measurements (Multi Meter) show something different. The RMS values are not the same:

- Project RMS = -10.7(RMS)

- WAV = -12.8(RMS)

So the wav seems to have less energy or the project and the bounce of my project are not equal.

 

[fuzzfilth]

13 hours ago, just20 said:

the bounce will be -1,1 + -2,0 = -3,1 Do I interpret this right?

No. -1,1 is the level after the fader, so the mix itself is actually +0.9.

13 hours ago, just20 said:

The RMS values are not the same:

- Project RMS = -10.7(RMS)

- WAV = -12.8(RMS)

Plugins sit before the fader. So in the mix, you're measuring what actually is +0.9, and then compare this to a bounce that ran through the -2dB fader (thus is 2dB lower).

I haven't mentioned it so far, but I personally strongly advise to not move the Stereo Out fader from its unity gain position, to avoid pretty much exactly this kind of confusion. Same with the Master Fader of course, which is even more dangerous, but that's another discussion.

If you're really happy with your mix except it peaking red on the Stereo Out, put a Gain plugin after any sound altering plugins on the Stereo Out, but before any metering plugins. Don't change levels after meters, else you invalidate their readings. Disable any plugins on the Stereo Out when playing back a bounce.

Actually, it's advisable to collect all mix signals on an extra mix bus, put any sound and level altering plugins on the Aux receiving that mix bus, put any metering plugins (and nothing else) on the Stereo Out, have Stereo Out and Master Faders at 0dB and play bounces straight through the Stereo Out, to avoid any and all of these issues completely.
 

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by fuzzfilth

[just20]

3 hours ago, fuzzfilth said:

Quote

No. -1,1 is the level after the fader, so the mix itself is actually +0.9.

I'm lost now,I don't get it.

Quote

 

lugins sit before the fader. So in the mix, you're measuring what actually is +0.9, and then compare this to a bounce that ran through the -2dB fader (thus is 2dB lower).

I haven't mentioned it so far, but I personally strongly advise to not move the Stereo Out fader from its unity gain position, to avoid pretty much exactly this kind of confusion. Same with the Master Fader of course, which is even more dangerous, but that's another discussion.

If you're really happy with your mix except it peaking red on the Stereo Out, put a Gain plugin after any sound altering plugins on the Stereo Out, but before any metering plugins. Don't change levels after meters, else you invalidate their readings. Disable any plugins on the Stereo Out when playing back a bounce.

Actually, it's advisable to collect all mix signals on an extra mix bus, put any sound and level altering plugins on the Aux receiving that mix bus, put any metering plugins (and nothing else) on the Stereo Out, have Stereo Out and Master Faders at 0dB and play bounces straight through the Stereo Out, to avoid any and all of these issues completely.

 

 

 

The point is I have to make my mix ready for the mastering proces, to send to the mastering engineer.
I have no plug-ins on my stereo out active then only the metering plug-ins.
The mastering engineer needs some headroom. Also I have red peaks in my stereo out, so I have 3 options in my opinion:

1 - To put down the stereo out fader.
Most people advise this. We did and had the issues named in this topic as you know.
2 - To use gain plug-in (to get out of the red, but for mastering engineer also a little headroom bij putting down the stereo out fader about -2 or -4
Some people say you can do this, I tried but it looks like there is something going on with the sound, it sounds different.
3 - To put down all the faders except the Master, Stereo Output and the AUX Sends.
I also tried but the sound was in my perception different like dynamics, anyway not the mix I wanted, expected.

My struggle: what is the best methode for bouncing my mix for the mastering engineer? so my mix isn' t 'damaged' and keeps the same dynamics and power I intended in my mix (actually the master engineer makes it even as loud as possible of course) So I won't lose anything than the master engineer can makes it to the best final track

I hope you can advise me.

 

[fuzzfilth]

A couple of things to think about.

- If the mix clips, like yours did (even just by 0.9dB), then you will need to turn it down, either by Stereo Out fader, Gain plugin on the Stereo Out, by Master Fader or even by some weird combination of all, if you like to punish yourself. It actually doesn't matter which you use as long as you know what you're doing.
- If you turn down your mix in either of these ways, it will be less loud than before. This is inevitable and should be common sense.
- If your Stereo Out is changing the level of your mix, by either of the mentioned methods, it will also change the level of any bounce that you try to play through it. Again, this should be no surprise.
- If your mastering engineer will make your song as loud as possible, rest assured that I (and pretty much everyone I spoke to about this matter in the past 15 years) as a listener will turn it down to a bearable level, so it's a questionable goal at best. Maybe you should find a mastering engineer who is aiming at making your mix sound as good as possible ?
- Bottom line is - if you hand in a clipped mix, your mastering engineer will think you're a moron. If they're nice, they tell you that your mix is clipped and offer to process a revised version that doesn't clip. So give them an unclipped mix. They'll charge you either way.

Edited July 18, 2022 by fuzzfilth

[just20]

43 minutes ago, fuzzfilth said:

A couple of things to think about.

- If the mix clips, like yours did (even just by 0.9dB), then you will need to turn it down, either by Stereo Out fader, Gain plugin on the Stereo Out, by Master Fader or even by some weird combination of all, if you like to punish yourself. It actually doesn't matter which you use as long as you know what you're doing.
- If you turn down your mix in either of these ways, it will be less loud than before. This is inevitable and should be common sense.
- If your Stereo Out is changing the level of your mix, by either of the mentioned methods, it will also change the level of any bounce that you try to play through it. Again, this should be no surprise.
- If your mastering engineer will make your song as loud as possible, rest assured that I (and pretty much everyone I spoke to about this matter in the past 15 years) as a listener will turn it down to a bearable level, so it's a questionable goal at best. Maybe you should find a mastering engineer who is aiming at making your mix sound as good as possible ?
- Bottom line is - if you hand in a clipped mix, your mastering engineer will think you're a moron. If they're nice, they tell you that your mix is clipped and offer to process a revised version that doesn't clip. So give them an unclipped mix. They'll charge you either way.

- ' making your mix sound as good as possible'  
I think I explain myself not right. Of course is the goal as good as possible. But when I have to give the master engineer headroom by turning te stereo out fader down, he will also crank it up as good as possible , that's what I mean. Is this right? 

[fuzzfilth]

The mastering engineer doesn't actually care about the level of your mix, as long as it doesn't clip. It is the same effort to (for simplicity's sake, as there's a bit more to it than a fader) "pull up" your mix by 1 dB or by 10 dB. Now, I know that the bean counters will throw an Excel sheet at me in response to that, where it's clearly (?) shown that 10dB of digital gain raises the fraggelbowish shwallowness comsumptions by about 0,57 perceptibels, but in the real world I guess that your or my mixing skills do so by several magnitudes more, so in essence, any reasonable level that doesn't clip is fine.

Edited July 18, 2022 by fuzzfilth