nickmck Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 (edited) Hey guys, Using Logic Pro X 10.7.4 on a Mac mini M1. Mac OS Monterey 12.4. Reposting this issue because I've found out a lot more since my last post and I will illustrate all of those points down below (posted extra screenshot in the comments) but I'll provide some context: Logic seems to have a bounce in place bug that is affecting third party plugins but this bug is exclusively happens to MIDI notes that start at the beginning of a MIDI region. When using the bounce in place function on MIDI notes attached to a third party plugin, the transient is destroyed and chopped off entirely and Logic only bounces audio that comes later in the waveform. Normally, the waveform would begin exactly at a zero-crossing because that's how I design my kick drums to avoid unnecessary clicks in the sound. This only happens to MIDI notes that are at the very beginning of a MIDI region. Please keep reading if you have the time! This is what I've come to learn so far: - Logic will (seemingly at random) have errors with the bounce in place feature. If I open a new project and bounce a MIDI note that's placed at the very beginning of a project (Position 1 1 1 1), it typically bounces the entire sound as intended... until it doesn't. It seems that time is the main activator of this issue and I've tested this quite a bit now. Once the issue arises, it remains for the rest of the session. However, putting a vintage EQ in the 'Audio FX' section and then bouncing the MIDI seems to pretty reliablly activate it too. - Seems to strictly be a 'bounce track in place' issue. - Using the 'bounce project or section' function to bounce MIDI notes from a third party plugin, no matter where the MIDI note is placed and no matter what other plugins are in the chain, fixes this issue entirely. - Issue does not happen EVER when bouncing native Logic sounds or instruments (Drum synth, etc.) no matter what Logic plugins are active on the chain. Bouncing in place always works as intended with native Logic sounds even if the bounce in place error has occurred with third party plugins during the session. I attached a screenshot (after this issue arose in this session) to show you the difference between bounce project or section vs bounce in place. As you can see, on the left (when using bounce project or section) the full transient is preserved and starts at the zero-crossing where it should. The image on the right is the same exact MIDI bounced but bounced with the bounce in place feature. Edited July 18, 2022 by nickmck Clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickmck Posted July 18, 2022 Author Share Posted July 18, 2022 (edited) Just posting another screenshot of 4 MIDI notes bounced from Serum. Note that only the initial waveform has a chopped transient. Trust me, if I zoom in, the transient from the first MIDI note is chopped quite drastically with the waveform starting at some place further along the waveform but the rest of the MIDI notes have preserved the waveform just fine. I'm not even bothering to make kicks from scratch now to test this so thankfully Serum has some preset ones! Edited July 18, 2022 by nickmck Clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deif Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 I was able to recreate this bug. It doesn't matter which bar you start on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickmck Posted July 19, 2022 Author Share Posted July 19, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, Deif said: I was able to recreate this bug. It doesn't matter which bar you start on. Exactly! Wow, honestly thank you so much for taking the time to do this and send the screenshot over. I was feeling so isolated in this issue and to see that it’s most likely a bug at least rules out my computer being broken or me being insane 😅 I just need to find the best way to report this bug to apple now. Edit: what third party plugin did you use for this test? I’ve found for me personally the same thing happens with Serum and Spire. Edited July 19, 2022 by nickmck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danyg Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 What happens if you extend the midi region to the left? Put your midi region to bar 2 (first kick on bar 2) and extend the midi region to bar 1 while leaving the first kick on bar 2. Now bounce in place from bar 1 to 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deif Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 3 hours ago, danyg said: What happens if you extend the midi region to the left? Put your midi region to bar 2 (first kick on bar 2) and extend the midi region to bar 1 while leaving the first kick on bar 2. Now bounce in place from bar 1 to 3 Same result. That was the first workaround I tried. 4 hours ago, nickmck said: Exactly! Wow, honestly thank you so much for taking the time to do this and send the screenshot over. I was feeling so isolated in this issue and to see that it’s most likely a bug at least rules out my computer being broken or me being insane 😅 I just need to find the best way to report this bug to apple now. Edit: what third party plugin did you use for this test? I’ve found for me personally the same thing happens with Serum and Spire. That was using a kick drum in U-he Repro 1. I then tried Logic’s Drum Synth and got a different result. Seems to be an issue with 3rd party plugins like you said. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danyg Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 (edited) hmm, I'm scratching my head what could cause that issue but can't confirm that. I'm producing all day long with NI Kontakt, Battery, Exs24, Sound Academy Kick2, etc... no problem sometimes I have problems with transient material on the first hit because of a compressor without lookahead doing weird stuff. Then I replace the first hit by the 2nd. But that's purely an audio engineering issue 1. too me it "feels" like an Audio Engine, Latency, Buffer thing 2. plugins like Limiter or izotope Ai with huge latency somewhere Edited July 19, 2022 by danyg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deif Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 3 hours ago, danyg said: sometimes I have problems with transient material on the first hit because of a compressor without lookahead doing weird stuff. Then I replace the first hit by the 2nd. But that's purely an audio engineering issue This is exactly what I'm going to do. Good to know the bug exists. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickmck Posted July 19, 2022 Author Share Posted July 19, 2022 9 hours ago, danyg said: What happens if you extend the midi region to the left? Put your midi region to bar 2 (first kick on bar 2) and extend the midi region to bar 1 while leaving the first kick on bar 2. Now bounce in place from bar 1 to 3 All MIDI notes that start at the beginning of a MIDI region have their transients neutered in the sense that it literally cuts the waveform out of the bounce entirely and plays the rest of the waveform which usually begins at a point that is not a zero-crossing so a click is produced. I've pretty much ruled out any audio engineering issues that involve compressors, etc. 6 hours ago, Deif said: Same result. That was the first workaround I tried. That was using a kick drum in U-he Repro 1. I then tried Logic’s Drum Synth and got a different result. Seems to be an issue with 3rd party plugins like you said. The only workaround I've found so far that properly preserves the transient of the waveform, for third party plugins specifically, is to use 'bounce project or section' instead of 'bounce in place' or to move the MIDI note to the right of the MIDI region by a 16th note or more; when moving the MIDI note to the right by a 16th note or more, the full waveform is preserved even when bouncing in place. 1 hour ago, Deif said: This is exactly what I'm going to do. Good to know the bug exists. Definitely good to know that I'm not the only one experiencing this. Now I just need to find the proper channel to report this bug because it's a huge workflow killer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mania Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html Please do report it. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickmck Posted July 23, 2022 Author Share Posted July 23, 2022 On 7/19/2022 at 10:20 PM, Mania said: https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html Please do report it. Thanks! I reported this! Please do the same if you can so it doesn't just seem like a random guy complaining 😅 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 Moving this to the bug forum! Thanks for reporting this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickmck Posted July 24, 2022 Author Share Posted July 24, 2022 7 hours ago, David Nahmani said: Moving this to the bug forum! Thanks for reporting this. Thank you for moving it to the bug forum David! Much appreciated 🤝 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 You're welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas007 Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) I wonder if that problem occurs when the snap to zero crossing isn't enabled? Edited July 25, 2022 by Atlas007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deif Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 On 7/24/2022 at 11:39 PM, Atlas007 said: I wonder if that problem occurs when the snap to zero crossing isn't enabled? I’ll try this. I reported the bug to Apple and today I got a reply from someone in the Apple team asking me to send them a project file. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deif Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 I didn't have snap to zero crossing checked so I tried with snap completely off and on and it made no difference. What I discovered is that the more notes you have following that first note, the worse it gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickmck Posted July 26, 2022 Author Share Posted July 26, 2022 9 hours ago, Deif said: I’ll try this. I reported the bug to Apple and today I got a reply from someone in the Apple team asking me to send them a project file. Awesome, really glad to hear that Apple is taking notice of this. I hope they realise it’s absolutely not user error. I sent them the TLDR version of my initial post so they have a really clear description of it from my end as well. Not sure if they ever replied back to me… I’ll have to check. Either way, at least they did for you! 9 hours ago, Deif said: I didn't have snap to zero crossing checked so I tried with snap completely off and on and it made no difference. What I discovered is that the more notes you have following that first note, the worse it gets. You’re killing it on this topic right now man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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