Isolate MIDI automation to region only

[Lieder]

Hi there, 
I’m trying to record a song from my Elektron Model Cycles (sequenced based, multi track groove box) and I’m running into some issues with MIDI automation.

Essentially I’m automating pattern changes and trying to automate specific parameters on individual tracks which works fine. But when I switch a pattern on the Model Cycles, the MIDI automation keeps effecting the next region (despite being converted to Region MIDI).

To clarify, say I have one track in Logic controlling the reverb settings for one track on the Model Cycles. The first region in Logic raises the reverb on the first pattern of the Model Cycles up from value 63 to 90. No problem there. But, when I change to the next pattern on the cycles, the new track may have a different reverb value all together. Logic is forcing the reverb to change to the MIDI automation that was set earlier.

As it stands, I have to look at the next pattern’s reverb value and write that into the automation in Logic even though I don’t intend to automate this part. This causes a ton of extra work when  really, I don’t want that pattern’s reverb to change or be automated at all (just the section in the previous pattern/region).

I feel like I’m struggling to explain this but essentially I want MIDI automation to be isolated to a region and not affect any parameters outside of that region. Almost like the MIDI “punches in” and then back out. Is that even possible?

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Lieder

[Atlas007]

I don't know the Elektron Model Cycles.

However, AFAIK, a MIDI device keeps the last MIDI (automation) value in force until it receives a new one. That is pretty much how MIDI works.

I.e. when a note is pressed on an organ keyboard it will keep sounding until the note is released. Playing that note while pressing on a sustain pedal (which will transmit to the organ) a CC#64 of value '127': will cause that note to keep playing even after you lifted your finger from the keyboard. And as long as the sustain pedal is down. As soon as the sustain pedal is released, the pedal transmit a CC#64 of value '0' (to the organ) which causes the organ to stop playing the note.

If for a reason, you disconnect that sustain pedal (while the note is still playing) before lifting your foot from it, the organ will just keep playing that note indefinitely.

IOW, your Elektron needs to receive the instruction (MIDI automation) to stop using the reverb. If it (the automation) isn't written anywhere, the reverb will simply keep sounding as previously instructed to.

[Lieder]

Thank you for the reply. I agree exactly. 

7 hours ago, Atlas007 said:

However, AFAIK, a MIDI device keeps the last MIDI (automation) value in force until it receives a new one. That is pretty much how MIDI works.

The problem is I can’t get Logic to stop sending MIDI data once I write a bit of automation. Whatever the last value in the Region is seems to be “forcing” my external synth to stay at that indefinitely. 

I thought converting the automation from “track” to “region” would resolve this but it doesn’t.

I ended up firing up Ableton and I can get the exact behaviour I need when using “Session mode” where all data is contained in separate clips. But strangely enough, the arrangement mode acts exactly like Logic. 

[polanoid]

10 hours ago, Lieder said:

I want MIDI automation to be isolated to a region and not affect any parameters outside of that region. Almost like the MIDI “punches in” and then back out. Is that even possible?

No this is not possible because it would need the DAW to ask your external hardware for the current value of the parameter at the start of a region, so it can reset the parameter to exactly that value at the end of the region. How else would Logic know that value? You say it works as you need in Live's Session Mode, but honestly I doubt that because of this reason. Maybe I don't understand what you're trying to achieve?

[Lieder]

I’ll try and explain a bit better:

I want Logics automation to only send out cc values for a brief period and then essentially stop sending anything. The external device has its own automation (if you will) that is always active, but Logic’s midi automation over rides it.

In a nutshell, I’m hoping Logic would act like a physical hand to turn a knob when I tell it, but completely let go/back off so the external device takes back over.

as it stands right now, Logic never lets go of the knob. I would have to completely ignore the external devices settings and automate the entire song via logic, which would be crazy time consuming (not to mention Elektron devices have parameter locks per step…).

Ableton’s session mode does work correctly as all data is contained in a clip. When the clip is turned off, no data goes to the external device allowing it’s internal automation to take over.

Maybe what I need to do instead is find a way to turn off the Midi track all together in Logic. Is it possible to automate that? Essentially power on the MIDI track when I want Logic to “drive” and then power it off when I want the external device to “drive”. 

I’m away from my computer but will test later. 

[JakobP]

Try this, go to project settings > midi and turn off midi chase for all midi cc's.

[Atlas007]

@Lieder Could you post a screen capture of what you describe as automation?

[polanoid]

The only way that Logic will send any CC messages outside a region would indeed be messages sent because of chasing, so if that's what you mean then @JakobP 's proposal is exactly what you need to do.

The notion that "Logic never lets go of the knob" is very misleading as once a CC message is sent, Logic (or indeed all other DAWs) will "let go" of that parameter, so if the external device feels like it wants to turn the knob by itself, it's free to do so.

Edited July 30, 2022 by polanoid

[polanoid]

2 hours ago, Lieder said:

I want Logics automation to only send out cc values for a brief period and then essentially stop sending anything.

Unless you do advanced stuff in the MIDI Environment or with MIDI Scripter in conjunction with the External Instrument plug-in, Logic will only ever send a CC value if:

1) there is a MIDI event for exactly that CC value stored in a region and that event is being played back

2) you reach the end of a region, the region's "Clip Length" checkbox is on, and the CC is one of those shown below

3) you reposition the playhead and chase is on (see above)

Trust me.

Edited July 30, 2022 by polanoid

[Lieder]

Holy crap, I figured it out!!

Everything is working as it should. The issue was after I converted the MIDI automation for each track from "track" to "region" the "track" midi automation was still in there.

So basically I had two MIDI automation lanes fighting over the same CC and after the play head passed the region, my external gear was still being controlled by the "Track" automation. Not sure if I did something wrong when doing the conversion (track > region) or this is expected behavior. Either way, it appears to be working now. I appreciate the help everyone.

Cheers

 

[polanoid]

This is strange as CC messages cannot be automated via Track Automation 

[Lieder]

Not sure what you mean or maybe we are talking about different things then.

(This is from memory) I’m using external MIDI tracks, In the main track view I hit command A (to switch to automation mode), click the data selector, select either “control 1-63” or “control 64-127” then select the specific CC (in this case, CC 13) and draw the automation. 
in the track header, I can specify if it’s “Track” or “Region” based. 
Then I just draw. In this case I drew a value of 58 rising to 125 over 1 bar. 
 

In reference to my earlier issue, I drew the above as “Track” automation, then used the “Convert MIDI automation to Region…”. to do just that. I may have made a mistake at this point…not sure… but the issue was I had CC 13 automation in both Region and Track. I was working with the Region only, making final adjustments but the Track automation (which was not in view at the time) was continuing to control the external gear past the region (as expected, I just didn’t know it was there).

 

[polanoid]

8 minutes ago, Lieder said:

Not sure what you mean or maybe we are talking about different things then.

(This is from memory) I’m using external MIDI tracks, In the main track view I hit command A (to switch to automation mode), click the data selector, select either “control 1-63” or “control 64-127” then select the specific CC (in this case, CC 13) and draw the automation. 
in the track header, I can specify if it’s “Track” or “Region” based. 
Then I just draw. In this case I drew a value of 58 rising to 125 over 1 bar. 
 

In reference to my earlier issue, I drew the above as “Track” automation, then used the “Convert MIDI automation to Region…”. to do just that. I may have made a mistake at this point…not sure… but the issue was I had CC 13 automation in both Region and Track. I was working with the Region only, making final adjustments but the Track automation (which was not in view at the time) was continuing to control the external gear past the region (as expected, I just didn’t know it was there).

I stand corrected, for External MIDI tracks, you can have CC (and only that of course as "real" automation makes no sense there) track based automation. I recommend to not use it however, to avoid problems like you exerienced