Accidentally hit "Don't Save" when closing a project. Is there a way to recover? There's an auto-save. How to open it?

[JOB]

Pretty much the title.  If I go to the file's package contents in Finder, I see the autosave at the time I closed it.  I'm not sure how to access it.  

[JOB]

Never mind, the auto-save is from when I opened it again. 

Oh well.  Work lost. 

[David Nahmani]

Sorry there's no solution for this. 

[JOB]

Its absolutely insane that Logic keeps a backup until you close the session, in which case its wiped away forever.   That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of in a DAW. 

[David Nahmani]

That's definitely something you'll want to share with the Logic team: https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html

I'm not aware of how other DAWs work in this regard and personally never rely on any auto-save or auto-backup features, I manually save new versions of the project I'm working in every 20 minutes or so. I'd love to have a reliable auto-save+backup feature I can trust but in 30 years of working with computers, I've learned to never fully trust any of those automatic features, and ultimately be responsible for my own saving/backup scheme.

Unfortunately, as every computer user out there, I also have experienced data loss. That's never fun when it arrives. 

[JOB]

Yeah first time its happened to me.  I'm usually good with hitting "save" (in Logic 9 it was to the point of obsession, turning into a rote "command-s" almost constantly), but Logic 10 does a good enough job where its less rote to me now and some hours can go by without me thinking of it. 

Not sure why I hit "don't save," it was a half-second brain fart. 

It was several hours of work, but a lot of that was feeling things out and trying different decisions, so it only took about 30 minutes to get it to where it was, not a huge loss.  

But sheesh man. . . the auto-backup of all your work dies if you make this one error?   Senseless. 

[polanoid]

Auto Save is only meant to save you if Logic crashes, not as a backup feature. If you click on Don‘t Save, Logic will assume you don‘t want to save.

Edited August 2, 2022 by polanoid

[JOB]

Yeah I get it.  I just think that's really dumb.  No reason it shouldn't save all the backups in a way to prevent the occasional user error from destroying hours of work.  

I honestly don't see why "don't save" is even an option, "save" or "save as" is plenty.  Who ever finishes up, closes Logic, and intentionally clicks "don't save."  Can't think of an option that's more meaningless that can do so much instant damage.  If you want to delete a session after working on it for some mystical reason, you can do it in Finder.

If "don't save" must be an option, it definitely needs to come with a second "are you sure" warning just in case, before all your work get nuked. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by JOB

[des99]

Honestly, I don't think I'm physically capable of doing hours worth of work without saving! (The very thought of that is like climbing solo without a rope - one power cut or crash and it's game over!) Makes me anxious! 😝

I developed a (imo, essential doing professional work) nervous command-S finger, and the second I do anything I don't want to lose I'm command-S-ing away.

Yes, it's annoying if you didn't save, and then your click Quit, and when asked to save, click on "No" but there's only so much a computer can do to protect itself from user actions! The best thing is to develop habits to not put you in those situations, especially as different software implements these things differently (or not at all) so it's difficult to rely on being slack in this regard.

So yes, an annoying learning experience, but there's not much professional software I know of that will save a copy of your project, and all assets (potentially a lot of data) even if you explicitly choose not to save it at all...

Edited August 2, 2022 by des99

[des99]

10 minutes ago, JOB said:

I honestly don't see why "don't save" is even an option, "save" or "save as" is plenty.  Who ever finishes up, closes Logic, and intentionally clicks "don't save."

I do, all the time, as I often load Logic as a scratchpad, or setup something to look into someone's question here, and once verified (or not), I will discard the project.

Or to load a project to play with it, maybe demo a plugin, and not commit those changes to the project.

I would hate to be forced to save it and then physically delete the file on disk, or overwrite a project unintentionally just to prevent someone accidentally pressing a button they didn't want to click on...

Edited August 2, 2022 by des99

[fisherking]

once i get a project started, i save it. then, periodically, after making some major changes. or really, whenever the impulse hits me, i hit 'command-S'. 

easy enough to delete (in the finder) a project you decide you don't need to keep, than wish you could get back the one that wasn't saved.

i've lost one project in about 12 years, and it won't happen again...

Edited August 2, 2022 by fisherking

[JOB]

21 minutes ago, des99 said:

So yes, an annoying learning experience, but there's not much professional software I know of that will save a copy of your project, and all assets (potentially a lot of data) even if you explicitly choose not to save it at all...

Plenty of professional creative software does this, its becoming standard. 

Software like Final Cut never asks you if you want to save anything at any point, its saving everything automatically. Your work is always there, you never click "save" or "don't save," ever.  If you want to delete, you have to take the step of deleting specifically what you want. This just makes sense, "don't save" is an antiquated option that serves no real purpose. There's absolutely zero reason that creatives have to live with the fear forgetting to command-s all the time while they're in the zone creating, other than programmers made it that way in this still-early phase of digital creation tools. 

 

[fisherking]

1 minute ago, JOB said:

Plenty of professional creative software does this, its becoming standard. 

Software like Final Cut never asks you if you want to save anything at any point, its saving everything automatically. Your work is always there, you never click "save" or "don't save," ever.  If you want to delete, you have to take the step of deleting specifically what you want. This just makes sense, "don't save" is an antiquated option that serves no real purpose. There's absolutely zero reason that creatives have to live with the fear forgetting to command-s all the time while they're in the zone creating, other than programmers made it that way in this still-early phase of digital creation tools. 

seriously, whatever you think of it (and i hear you, i appreciate that functionality in final cut), it is what it is. so you need to adapt... as has everyone on this forum (and undoubtedly, most macusers out there).

[JOB]

17 minutes ago, fisherking said:

easy enough to delete (in the finder) a project you decide you don't need to keep, than wish you could get back the one that wasn't saved.

Exactly.  Its just a dumb option that feels antiquated at this point.  Its fundamentally anti-creative to have to worry about this stuff, when its so easy to delete scratch ideas or whatever you don't want to keep other ways.   Final Cut is the model for how to best set up creatives to create without any fear baggage over their heads of making an error that destroys their work.  EVERYTHING should be done by the software to preserve work. 

[des99]

5 minutes ago, JOB said:

Software like Final Cut never asks you if you want to save anything at any point, its saving everything automatically. Your work is always there, you never click "save" or "don't save," ever.

Yes, because before you start work, FCP asks you to create a project/library etc, so it now has a disk project it can save state to... it's like immediately saving a Logic project before you do anything, so save (and autosave) always preserves work...

Edited August 2, 2022 by des99

[JOB]

1 minute ago, fisherking said:

seriously, whatever you think of it (and i hear you, i appreciate that functionality in final cut), it is what it is. so you need to adapt... as has everyone on this forum (and undoubtedly, most macusers out there).

Yes of course, it is what it is, adapt.  First time its happened in years for me.  But its shocking that one tiny mis-click can be so damaging.  This doesn't need to exist.  The cost/benefit is way out of wack. 

[fisherking]

3 minutes ago, JOB said:

Yes of course, it is what it is, adapt.  First time its happened in years for me.  But its shocking that one tiny mis-click can be so damaging.  This doesn't need to exist.  The cost/benefit is way out of wack. 

you're making the same point over & over, we got it. now, if you want this to be a better experience in the real world, adapt. save a started project early on. get used to hitting command-S. and you'll be good to go...

 

request a change here:

logic pro feedback page

Edited August 2, 2022 by fisherking

[David Nahmani]

To be fair there are three ways to deal with this (or any other issue): 

1. Accept that "that is the way it is" and adapt your behavior to the way the tool works now.
2. Work toward changing the way it is (feedback to the developers, but also discussing it with other users in a forum is also part of this).
3. Walk away (and, for example, use another tool). 

@fisherking you seem to be leaning toward #1 while @JOB is leaning toward #2. There's nothing wrong with either behavior. 

[fisherking]

2 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

To be fair there are three ways to deal with this (or any other issue): 

1. Accept that "that is the way it is" and adapt your behavior to the way the tool works now.
2. Work toward changing the way it is (feedback to the developers, but also discussing it with other users in a forum is also part of this).
3. Walk away (and, for example, use another tool). 

@fisherking you seem to be leaning toward #1 while @JOB is leaning toward #2. There's nothing wrong with either behavior. 

1 & 2 can both work at the same time..

[David Nahmani]

9 minutes ago, des99 said:

it's like immediately saving a Logic project before you do anything, so save (and autosave) always preserves work...

I'm not familiar with FCP but if it works like iMovie for example, then it's not the same. I know that in iMovie, you never have to save anything, and there's no auto-save as we know it in Logic. Instead, whatever you change is immediately written to the file (or at least appears to be for the user). Same experience as when working with iCloud for example. 

[JOB]

5 minutes ago, fisherking said:

you're making the same point over & over, we got it. now, if you want this to be a better experience in the real world, adapt. save a started project early on. get used to hitting command-S. and you'll be good to go...

request a change here:

logic pro feedback page

Yes I'm giving this feedback to Logic, of course.  

These repeated posts acting like I'm off base for suggesting Logic be creative-friendly and operate in a way that makes all deletions intentional are what's off base IMO.  This is clearly something on the regressive side of things that other professional software solved long ago. 

 

[JOB]

5 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

To be fair there are three ways to deal with this (or any other issue): 

1. Accept that "that is the way it is" and adapt your behavior to the way the tool works now.
2. Work toward changing the way it is (feedback to the developers, but also discussing it with other users in a forum is also part of this).
3. Walk away (and, for example, use another tool). 

@fisherking you seem to be leaning toward #1 while @JOB is leaning toward #2. There's nothing wrong with either behavior. 

1 is what you have to do, 2 is what it needs to be. 

[Popproxxx]

They shouldn’t even have a “Don’t Save Option! Like who doesn’t want to save work they’ve been doing for hours! When you start a project, you’re doing the project. Nobody wants to erase time they put into something. That they will never get back if they accidentally press “don’t save”! There should be a delete option available if you actually feel like “Oh I want to delete this project and throw it in the trash. But I just doubt anyone who starts a project will want to throw it away even. They can always go back and work on the track they started. What need would their be not to save work you’ve put into a project for whatever reason?

[des99]

10 minutes ago, Popproxxx said:

They shouldn’t even have a “Don’t Save Option! Like who doesn’t want to save work they’ve been doing for hours!

I really disagree with this. If I'm working on something good, I'm saving as I go - I save early, and often. I will be wearing out that command-S key. At this point, it's almost an unconscious impulse.

If I'm noodling around, just playing or exploring an instrument, or loading up Logic to test some behaviour for a forum answer, then very often don't want to save anything, so yes they should have that option - I shouldn't be forced to save something I don't want to save, then have to go and delete it afterwards.

The real answer is for all serious computer users to develop an effectively save strategy, to make sure they are in control of when, and why, they should save their work - with the computer having their back on the occasion they mess up and forget.

Anyone who starts a project, gets something going, and works on it for *hours* and doesn't think "Hmm, I should definitely save this", regardless of the app, is at some point likely to lose work. As are people that do that, then quit Logic, see the dialog box, and don't even think about it while clicking on "Don't save" - you can't really blame Logic in that case if you lose your work. It's a result of poor driving, not a badly designed car, imo.

(I just realised, I already posted all this previously in the thread. Ah well...)

[analogika]

13 hours ago, Popproxxx said:

They shouldn’t even have a “Don’t Save Option! Like who doesn’t want to save work they’ve been doing for hours! When you start a project, you’re doing the project. Nobody wants to erase time they put into something. That they will never get back if they accidentally press “don’t save”! There should be a delete option available if you actually feel like “Oh I want to delete this project and throw it in the trash. But I just doubt anyone who starts a project will want to throw it away even. They can always go back and work on the track they started. What need would their be not to save work you’ve put into a project for whatever reason?

 

Wait, so if I open up an existing project just to throw a newly acquired plugin across the master bus to see what it does and how it works, I should be forced to SAVE those changes into an existing project? 

Or if I open up a new project to throw a song into for beat analysis and looping for practise purposes, I need to save it first before deleting it from the Finder? 

I mean, I've been in the exact same position as the original poster myself, but hell no!

[JOB]

4 hours ago, analogika said:

Wait, so if I open up an existing project just to throw a newly acquired plugin across the master bus to see what it does and how it works, I should be forced to SAVE those changes into an existing project? 

Or if I open up a new project to throw a song into for beat analysis and looping for practise purposes, I need to save it first before deleting it from the Finder? 

I mean, I've been in the exact same position as the original poster myself, but hell no!

Final Cut and others have adopted a model where you name the project at the start, and it auto-saves everything throughout, you never have to worry about any errors or hitting save as you go, or even hitting save at the end.  Its got your back, no worries.  Its a major relief, it takes that "gotta make sure I don't lose everything" edge off in a psychologically beneficial way. If you want to delete or revert or save a project at a certain point and continue on, its very simple. To me, this by far makes the most sense. 

You form habits as you work, and if you go back and forth between different software a lot, the "saving" mistakes become easier and easier to make. I think the Final Cut model is the future and the way to go, as you can never make that mistake. 

Not to mention a lot of creative work is done under the influence of various substances, and I think artistically creative software should be influence-proof, there should be no way you can lose hours of work with one mistaken click at the end.  You're hanging out with music-making friends late at night drinking and smoking up, and the whole night ends up lost at the end cause someone hits the wrong button. 

I don't see any ideal where accidentally losing all your work is something that can actually happen, does nothing but give you the "save save save" PTSD we all suffer every moment of working, which is a useless psychological distraction to always have hanging over everything all the time. 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by JOB

[des99]

22 minutes ago, JOB said:

Final Cut and others have adopted a model where you name the project at the start, and it auto-saves everything throughout, you never have to worry about any errors or hitting save as you go, or even hitting save at the end.  Its got your back, no worries.

The second I think I'm going to be doing something I don't want to lose, I save my current project under a name. This is similar to above except the app doesn't force this on you - in other words, I can create, and keep my saves under control. With the above model, I'm always forced to create a disk project, even if I'm doing something quick and dirty that I don't need to save (eg, pull in a couple of clips, edit them and export them). Then I have to clean it up afterwards.

None of these models are right or wrong, BTW, they are just different design approaches, and they favour different workflows. There are people who can't trust themselves to make good save decisions, and so an app which is always saves your current state to disk is a workflow that those people probably favour.

Personally, I'm not a fan of that approach, because it means the app is always committing everything I do to the project, and that can get me in trouble sometimes. For instance, I'm often in a situation where I'm about to try something, eh, "adventurous", that might not work out. I save immediately before the operation, so I've committing my current state to disk (it's command-S, it takes no time). Then, I go through the adventurous multi-step process to try my idea, which may take multiple steps and take some time, putting the project in a precarious state while I work. If it works out good, then great, another command-S and I've committed that. if it doesn't work out, I just bail and reload the project, which immediately takes me back to the good place where I had my idea, as if nothing happened.

With those permanent document save approaches, I no longer have the option of knowing I've saved in a good state, and then only next saving when *I'm * ready - the app is always committing those adventurous things to the project, meaning if it doesn't work out, I either have to backtrack/undo, or I have to take extra steps to make a safety copy of something before I make changes (in FCP, for instance, make a duplicate timeline), and then clean up the extraneous stuff when I'm done - this is all extra work, that simply choosing when to save avoids. Or even worse, something bad happens when the project is in flux, and now your only copy is saved in the middle, when you cut a bunch of stuff in the middle, without pasting it where it goes, and now it's all gone from the project.

For me, I really want the ability to determine what and when to save, and I trust myself to make those decisions. If the app, behind all that, has some extra protections to save against crashes (Logic does this, for instance), or versioning etc, then that's all good, as long as it doesn't get in the way of my intentional saving.

But for sure, there are people who aren't good at saving, don't know where they're saving, do hours of work without saving, and just hope the computer gods aren't going to lose their work. For them, everything the computer can do to help is valuable.

Those people really do need saving! 😉 

Edited August 4, 2023 by des99

[JOB]

7 minutes ago, des99 said:

For instance, I'm often in a situation where I'm about to try something, eh, "adventurous", that might not work out. I save immediately before the operation, so I've committing my current state to disk (it's command-S, it takes no time).

Its the same thing, if you want to be adventurous, save it under a new name at the start.  We're talking a few *seconds* of difference.  With the benefit being you can never lose anything, which is a life changing benefit, not hyperbolically, it literally changes your mental state for the better every moment you're working.  

To me, to no longer have that "save" PTDS that haunts every single one of us is a godsend unlike any other. Every creative person has lost important work at some point or another, and the only solution is to be psychologically damaged by it enough to turn into a "save" junkie.  I just don't see how this is in any way acceptable, much less the ideal.  Its a primitive remnant from the 80s and 90s IMO. 

Edited August 4, 2023 by JOB

[des99]

21 minutes ago, JOB said:

Its the same thing, if you want to be adventurous, save it under a new name at the start.  We're talking a few *seconds* of difference.  With the benefit being you can never lose anything.

I did mention this above - with my approach, it takes zero cognitive load to commit before doing something risky. With some other approach, I have to arrange things first to eg make safety duplicates, or save under a new name (making sure I'm not duplicating assets) or whatever, and then cleaning up the extra stuff afterwards - all stuff I don't have to do with the way I like to save. So it's not the same thing at all. It's a significant advantage, both in time, and cognitive load. Which is why I like it.

21 minutes ago, JOB said:

To me, to no longer have that "save" PTDS that haunts every single one of us is a godsend unlike any other.

I don't have this fear of saving "PTSD" you mention, and haven't for decades. it comes with good, responsible, professional and dependable saving habits. 😉

21 minutes ago, JOB said:

Every creative person has lost important work to this at some point or another to this, and the only solution is to be psychologically damaged by it enough to turn into a "save" junkie.

There are people that encounter a disaster, and then use that to inform their workflow after the fact. Other people instead *never want to experience a disaster*, and prepare a workflow in advance that best protects them against it. This is a basic requirement for professional work, imo.

Honestly, I can't remember the last time I lost work due to my own poor saving workflow. I developed that habit a long time ago *because* I didn't want to be in the position of losing important work.

21 minutes ago, JOB said:

I just don't see how this is in any way acceptable, much less the ideal.

I didn't say that the current approach is "the ideal". I said, and made a point of saying that different approaches suit different workflows. There is no one "right" design/implementation for everybody. So to me it makes absolute sense, no matter how the apps I'm using are designed, to take my own responsibility of saving my work appropriately, so I can't blame something else should I lose work.

It may not be acceptable for you, it's perfectly acceptable for me. Neither of us is wrong! 😉

Anyway, I'm not going to argue the point further. I can absolutely see your point of view, and it's perfectly valid. I'm not sure you can see mine, though...

Edited August 4, 2023 by des99

[fisherking]

FCP still surprises me, when my instinct is to hit command-S... and i realize i don't have to. but am fine with logic, where i save something if & when i want to.

it's not the app's fault if i 'accidently' hit 'don't save'. anyway, this is how it is, so we have to adapt. i hit command-s frequently, in any app i work in, it's instinctive at this point.