Automation curve resets after moving region [SOLVED]

[Danny Wyatt]

Here's a region with a specific automation curve:

 

When I move the region, I get this:

 

Anyone experience this?

Edited August 7, 2022 by Danny Wyatt

[ozinga]

Yes, just tried it.

Same thing happens when I convert it to Region automation.

[Danny Wyatt]

2 hours ago, ozinga said:

Yes, just tried it.

Same thing happens when I convert it to Region automation.

Thank you for testing. Did you try with the pedal position layer as well or something else?

Right now I tried with the Volume and it didn't behave like that. Last night, after I tried with the Pedal Position, I was messing with the Volume and sometimes it would, sometimes it wouldn't and then for some weird reason, the pedal position stopped doing this as well. Super random...

Edit: see my post below. I know why this happens. Let me know if you experience the same thing and if fixing it the way I did, solves the issue

Edited August 7, 2022 by Danny Wyatt

[Danny Wyatt]

UPDATE: I think I know what's causing it, it's definitely a bug. So I created this automation by using the marquee and unfortunately, Logic places the nodes a bit off. Look at the marquee selection (snapped to the grid):

Now look where the automation nodes are placed:

So when I create the curve, the left node is outside the region:

So I need to move that node to align with the region's edge (or extend the region's edge to the left to include the node). When I do, that solves the problem. Another thing I noticed is that, if there are 2 automation lanes, even if one has that node outside the region, if there 2nd lane is inside the region, the 1st one doesn't behave like that... weird...

Even weirder: If the second lane has a node outside the region, but snapped to the grid, it doesn't change the curve, but if it's not snapped, it does. For example, this one would mess with the curve, because the pan's node is not snapped to 5 4 4:

 

Whereas this one doesn't mess with the curve, because it's snapped to 5 4 4:

Go figure...

I wonder why only the curve gets affected by this and not the slope itself? Also, why having a second lane with "good" and snapped automation nodes, fixes the first one?

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Danny Wyatt

[ozinga]

I used Retrosynth Cut Off

I tried volume and it acted normal which also somehow corrected  cut off automation too.

But now randomly either works or not. Drag copy and with repeat shortcut yields random results for both parameters.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wx9ot34jyq2tbs9/LP.mov?dl=0

[Danny Wyatt]

3 minutes ago, ozinga said:

I used Retrosynth Cut Off

I tried volume and it acted normal which also somehow corrected  cut off automation too.

But now randomly either works or not. Drag copy and with repeat shortcut yields random results for both parameters.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wx9ot34jyq2tbs9/LP.mov?dl=0

Check my post above

[Danny Wyatt]

@ozinga I just updated my "Solution" post again, after finding another weird behavior. Maybe you can test this as well and see if you experience the same thing? Let me know

[ozinga]

Sure I will give it a go

Logic and famous Snap issues since forever

[ozinga]

By the way I checked Automation Preferences and there is an option for Snap Offset which was 5 ticks on my system. Reducing it to zero seems to solve the issue.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by ozinga

[Danny Wyatt]

1 hour ago, ozinga said:

By the way I checked Automation Preferences and there is an option for Snap Offset which was 5 ticks on my system. Reducing it to zero seems to solve the issue.

Mine are both set to 0 anyway, so that wasn't the issue.
I created a new topic and I was told you can't have the nodes 100% on the grid, which makes sense.

Now my question to you is: did you create those nodes using the Marquee or the pencil? Just because the marquee is what makes the nodes be outside the region. Can you confirm this?

[ozinga]

I re-did with marquee and everything is on grid and keeping the curves in place when duplicating.

I tried using pencil and it places nodes early or late depending on the offset being  - or +.

When the offset is zero all nodes land on exact grid.

[David Nahmani]

@Danny Wyatt can you give exact steps to reproduce? I tried it with volume automation and couldn't reproduce the issue: 

[Danny Wyatt]

3 hours ago, David Nahmani said:

@Danny Wyatt can you give exact steps to reproduce? I tried it with volume automation and couldn't reproduce the issue: 

I tried your approach and it didn't mess with the curve. It seems that's even more random than I thought. Try mine instead:

[Danny Wyatt]

3 hours ago, ozinga said:

everything is on grid

Can you clarify what "on grid" means to you? Did you zoom to the max and looked at the nodes? As pointed out, 2 nodes can't be exactly on grid. At least not once you zoom in. You will see them slightly off grid. And to me with the marquee, the first node is put behind the region.

I only experience this with the marquee, not the pencil, because with the pencil I place the node exactly on grid, aligned with the region's edge

Edited August 7, 2022 by Danny Wyatt

[Atlas007]

@David Nahmani & @Danny Wyatt, are you testing with the same Logic version?

[Danny Wyatt]

3 minutes ago, Atlas007 said:

@David Nahmani & @Danny Wyatt, are you testing with the same Logic version?

Mine is 10.6.3

[ozinga]

Yes I zoomed in all the way and it is right on grid line. With the -5 tick offset the node is earlier. I tried +5 offset and its late.

Here is with zero offset and range tool. The first repeat is OK then the curve is gone.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/77pxm0m3kdqhtti/LP Range Tool.mov?dl=0

 

Logic Pro 10.7.4

 

 

[ozinga]

Here how it is in Ableton Live

All nodes are on grid unlike Logic which puts a little ramp. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zc46c1v5n486hvg/Ableton Automation.mov?dl=0

[Danny Wyatt]

59 minutes ago, ozinga said:

Yes I zoomed in all the way and it is right on grid line

Well technically, it's not, because your first node is before the region's edge. That's what I mean by being on the grid, because that's the node that's causing the issue. Once I shift them both so that the 1st node is on the edge and the second one is inside the region's area, the issue goes away.

Also, you are using the same approach as David's, which seems to have a different effect. Try mine instead:

 

1 hour ago, ozinga said:

The first repeat is OK then the curve is gone

Really odd and random behavior... Have you reported to Apple yet? Maybe they don't even know this: https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html

Thanks for sharing Ableton's behavior. I think Logic could be the same way. Even if behind the curtain, there is a ramp, visually it could be represented as both being vertically aligned 100%.
Also, even if you have the ramp in Logic by default, you can still drag the nodes so they can be super close to each other, so behind the curtain it could a super tiny small ramp that wouldn't make any difference if they presented it visually as a perfectly aligned vertical line just like Ableton

[Danny Wyatt]

54 minutes ago, ozinga said:

Here how it is in Ableton Live

All nodes are on grid unlike Logic which puts a little ramp. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zc46c1v5n486hvg/Ableton Automation.mov?dl=0

@David Nahmani This could definitely be implemented in Logic as well. Even if behind the curtain it includes a ramp (as close to each other as possible) it could be visually represented as a straight vertical line to avoid confusion

[ozinga]

Yes I have sent a feedback to Apple. As you said that little ramp is causing trouble. That is why I never get issues like that with automation in Ableton. In Logic I always get spikes, cuts and whatnot.

Here is another something odd.

I converted the track automation to region and curves are kept when repeated with Command+R,  but lost when option+dragged with mouse. So there really is something going on.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4vqouisdqsltxm2/Region Automation.mov?dl=0

[David Nahmani]

1 hour ago, Danny Wyatt said:

This could definitely be implemented in Logic as well. Even if behind the curtain it includes a ramp (as close to each other as possible) it could be visually represented as a straight vertical line to avoid confusion

Yes I suppose that would be a solution to those edits where the ramp is causing issues. 

[Danny Wyatt]

3 hours ago, ozinga said:

Yes I have sent a feedback to Apple. As you said that little ramp is causing trouble. That is why I never get issues like that with automation in Ableton. In Logic I always get spikes, cuts and whatnot.

Here is another something odd.

I converted the track automation to region and curves are kept when repeated with Command+R,  but lost when option+dragged with mouse. So there really is something going on.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4vqouisdqsltxm2/Region Automation.mov?dl=0

Wow now that’s random. At least this is something that’s not just happening on my version so hopefully they will fix it. Until then I guess we just need to remind ourselves to move those nodes to a safe spot