A_Pryce Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 Hello, I am not experiencing this in any other DAW so maybe I do something wrong in Logic. When there is a latency inducing plugin on an audio track(let's say vocal with ozone or similar latency causing plugins) I get latency when playing an instrument plugin with my keyboard. Now I understand that is normal if the plugins are on the instrument itself or master bus but why an unrelated audio tracks plugins affect the live midi input? I do not get this issue with Cubase for example. Thank You Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewdman42 Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 This happens when you have a latency producing plugin on an AUX track or the master track...but should not happen when you put latent plugins on actual audio tracks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Pryce Posted August 12, 2022 Author Share Posted August 12, 2022 (edited) Hi Dewdman42, Thank you for the reply. Yes that is what confuses me. When I remove the plugin from the vocal track midi response is normal again. I have nothing on the master track and do not have any aux tracks. I checked the Global and Project preferences but could not find anything that helps. Edit: I have latest Monterey, Logic 10.7.4 and Mac Studio running in Native mode. All 3rd party plugins are also Native Apple Silicon. Edited August 12, 2022 by A_Pryce System Info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewdman42 Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 what do you have this set to: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Pryce Posted August 12, 2022 Author Share Posted August 12, 2022 All, just like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewdman42 Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 I have nothing else I can think of. don't know why its not working for you. Post your project so we can look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Pryce Posted August 12, 2022 Author Share Posted August 12, 2022 OK, I will. Thank You so much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Pryce Posted August 12, 2022 Author Share Posted August 12, 2022 OK new update. Further looking to the project, the latency inducing plugin is on the track stack of vocal track. So I guess that is considered as an aux track. If I put the plugin on the actual audio track, there is no latency. Sorry for the confusion I was not in front of the project. But, I just checked the same setup with Cubase (All vocals routed to a group track which is an aux track in Cubase and plugin is inserted there does not cause any live midi playing latency issues like Logic. I also tried it on Ableton, no problem there either. So I guess Logic is different how it handles the latency? Yet I do not understand why it would create latency since my instrument track is going directly to the master track without any plugins or routings. Thank You. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 We would have to look at your full signal routing to give you a proper diagnostic (screenshot of your entire Mixer). All DAWs have different solutions for handling plug-in delay compensation and latency, so it's not surprising that you would get different results with the same routing in different DAWs. In Logic Pro, you can choose Record > Low Latency Mode to temporarily bypass the plug-ins that create latency in your R-enabled track's signal chain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Pryce Posted August 12, 2022 Author Share Posted August 12, 2022 (edited) Here an empty session, no audio files or anything where I have the latency. It goes away when I disable the audio summing stack with Option+Off Button. If this is the way Logic handles it, at least I will know it is not a system problem. Latency Session.zip Edited August 12, 2022 by A_Pryce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 Hmm you're right I can reproduce this issue here. Let me see if I can find out more about this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 Here's the interesting part. If you first create an Aux and insert the Adaptive Limiter plug-ins, then set its input to a bus, then set the output of the audio track to that bus, then select the audio track and create the summing stack, you end up with the exact same configuration, but no latency. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakobP Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 3 hours ago, A_Pryce said: Further looking to the project, the latency inducing plugin is on the track stack of vocal track. So I guess that is considered as an aux track. If I put the plugin on the actual audio track, there is no latency. Sorry for the confusion I was not in front of the project. As @Dewdman42 points out, any auxes with latent plugins makes Logic behave like this... ASFAIK this has been the behavior at least since LPX 10.0.7 (?) 1 hour ago, David Nahmani said: Here's the interesting part. If you first create an Aux and insert the Adaptive Limiter plug-ins, then set its input to a bus, then set the output of the audio track to that bus, then select the audio track and create the summing stack, you end up with the exact same configuration, but no latency. Can't reproduce here on 10.5.1... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 2 minutes ago, JakobP said: Can't reproduce here on 10.5.1... Does this file create latency for you? It doesn't here in 10.7.4. No-latency.zip 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Pryce Posted August 12, 2022 Author Share Posted August 12, 2022 58 minutes ago, David Nahmani said: Does this file create latency for you? It doesn't here in 10.7.4. No-latency.zip 514.44 kB · 0 downloads Thank you for checking David, For me still the same result. I opened your session and live midi is late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 5 minutes ago, A_Pryce said: For me still the same result. I opened your session and live midi is late. How weird! No latency here. Are you on an M1 machine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Pryce Posted August 12, 2022 Author Share Posted August 12, 2022 Yes, Mac Studio and Air M1, both same result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 I would love it if some other users here can give it a try, just download the file that post, play the Inst 1 track and let us know if you get latency? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakobP Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 2 hours ago, David Nahmani said: Does this file create latency for you? It doesn't here in 10.7.4. No-latency.zip 514.44 kB · 2 downloads Yes, it does... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 Just now, JakobP said: Yes, it does... You're on 10.5.1 though so the behavior could have changed. What's surprising is that @A_Pryce and I are on the same version and getting different behaviors. 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakobP Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 2 hours ago, David Nahmani said: It doesn't here in 10.7.4. Did you try it during playback ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 Just now, JakobP said: Did you try it during playback ? Interesting! None of my previous tests were made during playback. Once I start playback, I get much more latency than when Logic is initially stopped, in both cases (both different ways to create the summing stack). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakobP Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 Yeah, I've seen the latency kick in when first starting playback here before, with your project I had instant latency, though... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozinga Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 I tried both sessions and both have latency. Macbook Pro M1Max Monterey 12.5 LP 10.7.4 in Native Mode. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakobP Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 12 hours ago, Dewdman42 said: This happens when you have a latency producing plugin on an AUX track or the master track...but should not happen when you put latent plugins on actual audio tracks. So this is still true in latest Logic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewdman42 Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 Coming back after I was away...a lot happened on this thread and I'm a little confused about what exactly the scenario is does or doesn't create latency? But I will make the following points just after a brief scan of the thread: LogicPro recalibrates things like PDC at the time you hit PLAY, it does not do it dynamically while LogicPro is playing...and it seems from the above dialog that it doesn't do it while stopped either? Its an interesting point that I can see led to some confusion. Seems weird to me that it didn't recalibrate while stopped and that could be a bug where its not recalibrating PDC until PLAY under some condition, but other actions while stopped are recalibrating. And really it should always recalibrated while stopped...but anyway, maybe we can figure out what the situation is where its no recalibrating? it may also matter which track is selected and when you actually select it, which might affect PDC. Its normal and expected behavior for Logic to add delay to all tracks in the project when any latent plugin is placed on an AUX track. This goes back many many versions, probably all the way back to whenever Logic had plugin delay compensation of any kind. Its by design that it happens. The way LogicPro generally handles PDC is that midi and audio tracks during playback are able to have their source regions fed to the mixer ahead of time by the PDC amount, so that any latency that is on those instrument or audio mixer channels will be compensated by playing the regions early. But AUX channels typically don't have source regions on the arrange page. So nothing can be fed to them early. Therefore LogicPro's standard approach for handling PDC on AUX channels is to delay ALL OTHER CHANNELS in the mixer to make up for the delay that is in that AUX channel. That is a generalized description of how LogicPro handles PDC. When it can feed the source midi or audio early, it will. When it can't, then everything else has to be made later. Now when AUX's are used as a direct bus from an audio track, and the aux is not being used by anything else; you would think that AUX is basically in the signal path of the audio track and LogicPro ought to be able to figure out that it doesn't need to make everything else late since its source region was early. Or there can be other weird routings that its beyond me how LogicPro could possibly figure out how to delay or not delay tracks due to complicated routing. But what I can say is simply that LogicPro does follow the rule that audio and instruments tracks are fed from a region, which can be queued early to avoid hearing latency, and AUX channels are more like a "live" channel that can't be fed early, so if its going to be late, then all the others have to be made later also in order to line up. Cubase or other DAW's may handle latency in different exact ways then LogicPro of which I don't know enough to make any exact statements. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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