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Bus "grouping" so confusing


Danny Wyatt
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I believe since the implementation of stacks, the whole bus "grouping" makes no sense to me and it seems that everything is all over the place, making it super hard to find what I need. For example you can see that there's no sends to 176 or 177 here (notice the name at the bottom "Fullness..."):
image.png.ea0ac07269b702f5a09619dac8ab333f.png

 

Now I have these auxs that are receiving from bus 176 and 177, on the right. At the same time, all the select tracks are using the sends "Amb" and "Med" and I want them to change to 176 and 177:
image.png.d5fa19c66906e15f42022f02eced050a.png

 

The issue is that, because of all the "grouping" feature, when I go to where 176 and 177 should be (right after 175), I can't find them. Going through each and every one of the "groups", I found them at the very top grouped with 161... What a mess of a workflow...
image.png.d702e35f0d961a729f2e262e7f30a469.png

So if I had all busses being used (161 through 192) I would have to go through every group until I found the one I want, because 176 is no longer after 175??!

Am I missing something "logical" here? Because it makes no sense.

Can we disable this behavior and just have the auxs one after another?

Edited by Danny Wyatt

Danny Wyatt - Musician, Music Producer, Songwriter, DJ
http://www.iamdannywyatt.com  - Join my Discord: https://dwyatt.me/discord
Logic Pro 10.6.3 • MacBook Pro 13" Mid 2012 • macOS Catalina 10.15.7

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2 hours ago, David Nahmani said:

Can you share your project file? 

busses.zip

And also this big mess when there's a lot of things going to that bus:
image.png.94937573c246fc4d02d8ccb8f306643c.png

So Apple wants us to being able to see what goes into the bus, but it truncates the info when there's more than X amount of tracks going to it...?

Danny Wyatt - Musician, Music Producer, Songwriter, DJ
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Logic Pro 10.6.3 • MacBook Pro 13" Mid 2012 • macOS Catalina 10.15.7

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Oh I see so Bus 176 is actually going to two different destinations and the grouping is based on the first destination Logic finds I suppose. So your feature suggestion would be to turn off this automatic bus grouping?

As for the menu, I see that it gets truncated when there are too many sources to display, what would you suggest instead? 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, David Nahmani said:

Oh I see so Bus 176 is actually going to two different destinations

That is the case with the file I sent you, just because I added that extra track, but even if 176 was only going to one place, it would group them as well, because it's inside that summing track. At least that's what I was experiencing when I created the post.

1 hour ago, David Nahmani said:

So your feature suggestion would be to turn off this automatic bus grouping

At least they could give the user the option. I guess the issue here is that a Bus can be used in many different scenarios: as an input at the top of the strip, as a send, as the output of a strip. So having this grouping feature is kinda weird, because you look at that info and you have to think where you are actually sending it to. "Am I sending it to a summing track? An aux with a reverb? A normal sub group?". I think maybe the best approach (unless I'm missing something) would be to just show the Bus number (or custom name) and then the arrow to the right would show the different destinations, just as a way for us to know where it's being sent to. Like this:
Bus 1
Bus 2
Bus 3 > Synth Summing, Reverb 2, DrumGroup
Bus 4

Right now, it's a mess. Try this:
- Create a track, then create a summing track with it. Name the summing track Synth, for example. As the input for the summing track, choose Bus 1.
image.png.f90c877e91e402a9adcd58faf873d69b.png
- Repeat the process for a second instrument and summing track. Now when you go and try to pick the input for that second summing track and you go to where Bus 1 is supposed to be, you won't see Bus 1. You will see Synth, which is confusing. Not only that, but if you rename that Synth summing track, now the bus group name will also change.

Now, in this simple case, it's easy to see that Synth is related to Bus 1, because it's the only bus we are using and you see Bus 2 right after that, but what if you have all busses 1 through 32 being used as Summing tracks with custom names? Now all you see is a list of:
Synth (which would be Bus 1)
Drum Group (which would be Bus 2)
Effects Synth (which would be Bus 3)
Soundtrack Files (which would be Bus 4)
Filtered Delays (which would be Bus 5)
etc

Complete workflow killer

And it doesn't stop there: as we have seen, when you have more things being sent there, now you have inside the Synth summing track (Bus 1), more Busses. They can be in order, or as I was experiencing, a complete weird grouping.

Hope I'm making sense here ;) 

1 hour ago, David Nahmani said:

too many sources to display

We first need to define what "too many" actually means, right? Because if we can add as many busses we want, then there's no such thing as "too many". That being said, I would expect the info to be shown, even if it would take multiple lines. In my example of using the name of the busses only and then a sub menu with all the instances using it, this wouldn't be an issue, because it would only show all instances for that Bus, even if it took 2 or more lines to show the information.

So something like this:

Bus 1
Bus 2
Bus 3 > Synth Summing, Reverb 2, DrumGroup,
              Filtered Delays, Snares, HighPitched HiHat
             SynthGroup, PreMaster
Bus 4

Edited by Danny Wyatt

Danny Wyatt - Musician, Music Producer, Songwriter, DJ
http://www.iamdannywyatt.com  - Join my Discord: https://dwyatt.me/discord
Logic Pro 10.6.3 • MacBook Pro 13" Mid 2012 • macOS Catalina 10.15.7

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3 minutes ago, Danny Wyatt said:

We first need to define what "too many" actually means, right? Because if we can add as many busses we want, then there's no such thing as "too many".

Too many to display in the space that is offered in the bus pop-up menus to keep them in a reasonable size. 

3 minutes ago, Danny Wyatt said:

So something like this:

Bus 1
Bus 2
Bus 3 > Synth Summing, Reverb 2, DrumGroup,
              Filtered Delays, Snares, HighPitched HiHat
             SynthGroup, PreMaster
Bus 4

You can imagine how that could become an issue as well if Bus 3 has so many sources that it pushes all other busses further down the list... I'm guessing there's no ideal solution here, any solution would have its own drawbacks. Unless you can pop-up a scrollable menu or something...

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4 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

You can imagine how that could become an issue as well if Bus 3 has so many sources that it pushes all other busses further down the list

Not really. This is how I was able to write it here, but remember that the extra menu item is an extra menu that "floats" on the right, so even if you have a 300px tall window, the list of Busses would remain the same. Imagine this sub menu with "Drums" that shows "Bus 1 (Amb), but taller ;) :
image.png.06dfefb0bd474ec887ad06d3c1884225.png

Danny Wyatt - Musician, Music Producer, Songwriter, DJ
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Just now, Danny Wyatt said:

Imagine this sub menu with "Drums" that shows "Bus 1 (Amb), but taller ;) :

Yes in that new case, however I was responding to the earlier example you posted, where all listed busses display their sources at the same time. If you have an extra menu that floats to the right then that would mean only one bus at a time displays its sources? That wouldn't be very practical in most uses. 

Or perhaps, once you hover that bus and its truncated list of sources then an extra menu pops up to the right with the full list.. now that would make sense. Perhaps that's what you meant all along? 

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Posted (edited)

@David Nahmani Ok, bear with me:

A bus is unique, right? Bus 1, is bus 1. There's no Bus 1a, then Bus 1b, so when you are sending anything to Bus 1, all of those tracks are being sent to the exact same thing: Bus 1. Now if you are using Bus as the input for Synth Summing Track or a Reverb, that doesn't change the fact that whatever you send to Bus 1 will go to those channels (the summing track and the reverb). Still with me? Great! haha

So the only information you need is: Where am I sending it to? (that's the parent list of busses in order). Then, what other tracks are being sent to this Bus? Summing track X, reverb Y, group of instruments Z. Now when I see that list, I can quickly see if I want to use that bus or not, because now I'm aware that using that bus (if I'm using it as a send, for example) will send that source to all of those inputs as well (Summing Synth, Reverb, Instruments). Does it make sense?

Next to each one of those 3, maybe we could have the arrow as we have now which indicates if the bus is being used as an input or an output, or both (in this last case, it would show an arrow to the left and an arrow to the right). This with the arrows would be just an extra aid anyway.

Edited by Danny Wyatt

Danny Wyatt - Musician, Music Producer, Songwriter, DJ
http://www.iamdannywyatt.com  - Join my Discord: https://dwyatt.me/discord
Logic Pro 10.6.3 • MacBook Pro 13" Mid 2012 • macOS Catalina 10.15.7

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1 minute ago, Danny Wyatt said:

So the only information you need is: Where am I sending it to?

That's where Apple disagrees with you, which is why it started displaying what sources are routed to that bus. Personally, since it was implemented, I've found that useful on several occasions. 

An example of this would be if you've routed a source A to a bus and now want to route another source to the same bus, then you're looking for that information. (Where is the bus that has source A routed to it?)

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

An example of this would be if you've routed a source A to a bus and now want to route another source to the same bus, then you're looking for that information. (Where is the bus that has source A routed to it?)

Well we go back to what I said: you are looking at this as "one source being used: source A". But as I suggested you to try is: what if bus 1 is being used initially as the input of a summing track called SYNTH? Now when you go to where bus 1 is supposed to be, right before bus 2, you will see SYNTH. Does it mean that if now I want to use bus 1, I'm sending it to a place called SYNTH? No. You are sending it through bus 1, that's the path, which SYNTH is using as the input. So now if you have 10 summing tracks with different content, all using bus 1 as their input? Why does Bus 1 keeps SYNTH as the new name, when I also have drums, reverbs, parallel compression, etc? It doesn't make sense to me. The name of the bus shouldn't changed depending on what's using it. 

image.png.9cdff3a5c14ca8788bc3438483c3908e.png

This is how I see it, where the name of the bus shouldn't change on the main list:
image.png.e743b5a3c2630bb51aa7020f5ee5e4e7.png

 

Now the way it's implemented, this is what's happening, if your first use of the bus has a custom name such as Drum Group:
image.png.15f00fad8055f06e69af6fb2c2d33ca5.png

Now when you go and try to send a source to Bus 1, you will see Drum Group. Does it mean you are sending your synth to the Drum Group? Well, you are, because Dest 1 is called "Drum Group". But it's also being sent to Dest 2 and Dest 3. Why is the group called Drum Group and not "Reverbs" (if that was the name of Dest 2)? ;) 

This is pretty much the same logic as variables. Variable "myValue" doesn't change its name. You can use myValue in different places and use different values, but when you see the variable's name, it's always myValue and not the value it was assigned to. Right?

 

Edited by Danny Wyatt

Danny Wyatt - Musician, Music Producer, Songwriter, DJ
http://www.iamdannywyatt.com  - Join my Discord: https://dwyatt.me/discord
Logic Pro 10.6.3 • MacBook Pro 13" Mid 2012 • macOS Catalina 10.15.7

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16 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

An example of this would be if you've routed a source A to a bus and now want to route another source to the same bus

You just said it yourself: "route another source to the same BUS". ;) 
I think we have to remember one important thing: a BUS is a path, not a destination. You don't send something TO a bus, you send it THROUGH a bus. So when you want to use a path/bus, that name shouldn't change according to the destination. It doesn't make sense to me.

But again, my whole point is: this should be an option where users could pick the method that fits them. before summing tracks you were able to work, right? And it made sense. So it's not that it was broken. Grouping this way just doesn't seem logical to me.

Danny Wyatt - Musician, Music Producer, Songwriter, DJ
http://www.iamdannywyatt.com  - Join my Discord: https://dwyatt.me/discord
Logic Pro 10.6.3 • MacBook Pro 13" Mid 2012 • macOS Catalina 10.15.7

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

That's where Apple disagrees with you, which is why it started displaying what sources are routed to that bus

I don't think they disagree at all and I'm not saying it's bad to show what sources are routed through that bus. Actually, this is exactly what I would like to see, but just better organized. Bus 1 sends to destination 1, destination 2, destination 3. The bus should remain "Bus 1" and then hovering over it, it would show destination 1, destination 2, destination 3. How is Apple disagreeing with me when we want the exact same thing...?

EDIT: when I said "sources" I was actually thinking about "destinations", which is a priority in my mind. Destinations may change my sound. Sources won't.

Edited by Danny Wyatt

Danny Wyatt - Musician, Music Producer, Songwriter, DJ
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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

Ok my bad I thought you meant that we didn't need to see which sources were routed to a bus. 

Kinda... the sources are really not that relevant, the destinations are. If you have 3 sources using Bus 1, when you try to add a 4th source, what you want to know is: where is this sound going to when I use bus 1? Because that will affect your sound, not the sources using it. So if you have a piano and you route it to Bus 1 that's using a heavy distortion, you want to know that, because then you know your piano will sound heavily distorted. Knowing that a drum kit and a synth is routed to bus 1, is secondary, wouldn't you agree? I mean, you could have both options displayed, if possible, but by priority, wouldn't you prefer to see what is the destination when you use that bus?

Look at the mess this is when you have summing tracks using the busses. Find me bus 13, please haha:
image.png.53c8c095ff3246f9856105f2512e95fc.png

Now, if I have another source and I send it to where it says "phaser" (near the bottom), does it mean I will have a phaser effect on my sound? Yes and no, because if that bus is being sent simultaneously to a Phaser, a Distortion, a Reverb and a Delay, I will have all of those added to my sound, not just a phaser. So why is it just "phaser"? Don't you think this is misleading?

Whereas if you see Bus 14 > Phaser, Distortion, Reverb, Delay, you will know you're using Bus 14 and that sending your source to it, will result in it being sent to all of those 4 effects.

This, to me, is better organized than the current state.

Sorry for another yet example hahaha

Let's say you're taking a trip and you're driving and the name of your street by your house is called "Flowers Street". And taking that street will lead you to one of these places: Portugal, Denmark, Croatia. Just because that street was built as a way to get to Portugal only, would you change its name to "Street to Portugal"? What if they then built the path to Denmark and Croatia, but the street was still "Street to Portugal"? Isn't it misleading? Don't you want to know the name of the street and THEN check what destinations it takes you to? :) 

Edited by Danny Wyatt

Danny Wyatt - Musician, Music Producer, Songwriter, DJ
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@David Nahmani Maybe this would be the best option, displaying both sources and destinations:
image.png.933b53f9d1cf7ba48c6b1f87cfdf580b.png

So "Bus 2 >" would show that Bus 2 is sending to those destinations (top option), then "sources > Bus 2" would show the sources as you were saying (bottom option).

To be honest, with all the space we have, we could easily have that pop up with that much information or more. Let's be honest, stock plugins are huge when it's not necessary, so why not having this info displayed like this?

Danny Wyatt - Musician, Music Producer, Songwriter, DJ
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@David Nahmani sorry, one more suggestion (I sent this page to Apple so if by any chance they come here and see it, it's here):

Another option to make it easier for everyone would be to have the main menu display the 2 options:
1 - Bus (by source) - "your/Apple's way"
2 - Bus (by destination) - "my way", just the list of all busses by number/custom name with the destinations inside.

So by source ("your/Apple's way"), it would indeed show the sources, but it should be sorted alphabetically to make it easier to find a source named "Ambient" at the top of the list, or one named "Synth" at the very bottom. Right now, it's mixed, making it super hard to find it.

Then inside you would be able to see the list of busses being used by that source:
Ambient > Bus 13 (Phaser)
                  Bus 192 (Effects Group)
Synth > Bus 1 (Reverb)
               Bus 48 (Delay)

What do you think? Would this make more sense to everyone with different workflows?
 

 

Danny Wyatt - Musician, Music Producer, Songwriter, DJ
http://www.iamdannywyatt.com  - Join my Discord: https://dwyatt.me/discord
Logic Pro 10.6.3 • MacBook Pro 13" Mid 2012 • macOS Catalina 10.15.7

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