GeneralDisarray Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 Maybe I need to read again that whole section in the manual, but my impression was that when you select "Write" in a track, that will overwrite all the automation points already there with whatever you do while you're recording. So for example, if I record some notes but I only have two hands so I can't operate the controls for CC1 and 11 while playing, then I can do another pass playing the notes while moving those two faders as I see fit. Sometimes I do that with the pencil, but sometimes I like to play with the two faders while playing. But when I do that, if I record over areas that already had points, I get disasters like these: This one looks like some kind of monster So usually when I want to record automation with the controls I just delete the points for the area that I want to record. But should this happen when it's set to Write and not Touch or Latch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 MIDI CC messages are not considered automation. You can only record them, but not write them using Touch/Write/Latch modes. Write mode, on the other hand, only applies when writing automation, not when recording CCs 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 11 hours ago, GeneralDisarray said: when I do that, if I record over areas that already had points, I get disasters like these That's one of the downsides of recording MIDI CC (vs using automation). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisarray Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 6 hours ago, polanoid said: MIDI CC messages are not considered automation. You can only record them, but not write them using Touch/Write/Latch modes. Write mode, on the other hand, only applies when writing automation, not when recording CCs 4 hours ago, David Nahmani said: That's one of the downsides of recording MIDI CC (vs using automation). Thank you both for your replies. I'm a bit confused, I thought that recording MIDI CCs was one way of recording automation. So when you say MIDI CC vs using automation, how do you use automation in a way that is not by recording CCs? You mean by drawing with the pencil, or by setting some points in linear or curved mode? I still have trouble grasping the way MIDI CCs work. Either they are really poorly designed, or I'm missing something. Let's use a basic example: when I turn on my receiver, at least the analog one from the 80s, the volume, bass and treble will produce a sound matching their current positions. Meaning, if the volume knob is at 3, it won't output either no sound or a really loud sound until I move it a little bit. It will produce a volume according to where the knob is. I know that's kind of difficult with MIDI CCs because even if there are knobs and faders and wheels and all that, to motorize them to move according to the automation points is expensive, and that wouldn't make them available to most regular people. But at the same time, I believe they should work in a way that either respects the values at the current point in the timeline if it's inside a DAW, or if there are no values because you're playing in a new track that doesn't even have any Modulation or Expression recorded yet, they should be set automatically to whatever position they have on the controller, kind of like the volume knob example. Does that make sense? Still, I can't figure out why, if I have all the reset options in Logic disabled, it keeps on resetting unless I check that No Reset thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 27 minutes ago, GeneralDisarray said: I still have trouble grasping the way MIDI CCs work. Either they are really poorly designed, I literally LOL'd when I read this. Do you know which year MIDI was specified? DAWs weren't even anywhere on the horizon back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 (edited) 34 minutes ago, GeneralDisarray said: So when you say MIDI CC vs using automation, how do you use automation in a way that is not by recording CCs? You can write automation in Touch/Write/Latch mode either by - moving the plug-in knobs and faders and/or the channel strip's knobs and faders in the GUI - using a dedicated control surface like Logic Control or Logic Remote - assigning specific MIDI CC messages to automation parameters via Logic Pro->Control Surfaces->Controller Assignments Edited October 4, 2022 by polanoid 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 (edited) 39 minutes ago, GeneralDisarray said: they should be set automatically to whatever position they have on the controller That's not possible with controllers that aren't motorized or provide any kind of feedback about their current value. Edited October 4, 2022 by polanoid 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 (edited) 38 minutes ago, GeneralDisarray said: Still, I can't figure out why, if I have all the reset options in Logic disabled, it keeps on resetting unless I check that No Reset thing. That's a different topic isn't it? Edited October 4, 2022 by polanoid 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisarray Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 1 hour ago, polanoid said: That's a different topic isn't it? Ha! Yes. My brain isn't what it used to be. I was mixing up the two posts I made yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisarray Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 5 hours ago, polanoid said: Do you know which year MIDI was specified? DAWs weren't even anywhere on the horizon back then. OK but isn't there MIDI 2.0, which is newer? I have selected in the preferences BTW. And what about MPE, isn't that like a better MIDI? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisarray Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, polanoid said: You can write automation in Touch/Write/Latch mode either by - moving the plug-in knobs and faders and/or the channel strip's knobs and faders in the GUI - using a dedicated control surface like Logic Control or Logic Remote - assigning specific MIDI CC messages to automation parameters via Logic Pro->Control Surfaces->Controller Assignments So, whenever I tried to record automation in touch or latch mode, this same thing happened. If there was anything there before, I got the teeth monsters. And maybe it's my declining memory, but I thought that I had solved that by using Write mode, which is annoying because it gives you that warning once in every session. But at least it used to overwrite all of them, not create this weird thing. Edited October 4, 2022 by GeneralDisarray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisarray Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 Apparently hitting Option+Enter posts the message, so I'll continue here. About Logic Control, which one is that? I do have Logic Remote in my iPad, and I use it sometimes, but it's another thing on an already cluttered desk, so I don't use it all the time. I will try that controller assignments thing, but if I do that, will that overwrite any previous automation points no matter what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, GeneralDisarray said: About Logic Control, which one is that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_Control 7 hours ago, GeneralDisarray said: I will try that controller assignments thing, but if I do that, will that overwrite any previous automation points no matter what? If you use Touch, Write or Latch mode to write automation, yes. 7 hours ago, GeneralDisarray said: So, whenever I tried to record automation in touch or latch mode, this same thing happened. If there was anything there before, I got the teeth monsters. Then you didn't do it correctly. Please describe exactly (step by step) what you did. 7 hours ago, GeneralDisarray said: Write mode, which is annoying because it gives you that warning once in every session That's because Write mode is a quite uncommon mode to use (it overwrites everything, even if you don't touch the fader / move the control at all) 7 hours ago, GeneralDisarray said: OK but isn't there MIDI 2.0, which is newer? I have selected in the preferences BTW. The fact that Logic now supports MIDI 2.0 does not mean that it can magically make your hardware devices support MIDI 2.0 as well. 7 hours ago, GeneralDisarray said: And what about MPE, isn't that like a better MIDI? MPE (MIDI polyphonic expression) has to be supported by your hardware controller as well. The statement that it's "like a better MIDI" would be at least misleading, if not altogether wrong. Edited October 5, 2022 by polanoid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas007 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 6 hours ago, GeneralDisarray said: I will try that controller assignments thing, but if I do that, will that overwrite any previous automation points no matter what? The way I understand it, your MIDI controller action will be converted into automating data (Fader data) when going through the controller assignment process. Therefore it will operate accordingly to the chosen automation recording modes (Write, Touch, Latch). It also seems that the automation recording mode works only when using TBA (track based automation). The fader (automation) events when moved (converted) into region based automation, the Write (Touch or Latch) mode(s) aren't affecting what is already inside the region. One could transform MIDI data into Fader then convert the Region automation to TBA. Then the Write (Touch or Latch) mode(s) will affect the automation. Admittedly quite cumbersome as a workaround... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 6 minutes ago, Atlas007 said: It also seems that the automation recording mode works only when using TBA (track based automation). The fader (automation) events when moved (converted) into region based automation, the Write (Touch or Latch) mode(s) aren't affecting what is already inside the region. Sorry @Atlas007, but this isn't correct. Touch/Write/Latch modes work for region based automation (RBA) as well as for track based automation (TBA). For writing RBA, of course there must be existing MIDI or Audio regions (otherwise Logic hasn't got a destination to write to). To record RBA in newly recorded regions, you will need to use the "Record Automation with Audio/MIDI regions" mode from the Automation mode menu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 7 hours ago, GeneralDisarray said: I had solved that by using Write mode, which is annoying because it gives you that warning once in every session. I recommend using Touch or Latch for your purpose instead, not Write. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 8 minutes ago, Atlas007 said: One could transform MIDI data into Fader then convert the Region automation to TBA. Then the Write (Touch or Latch) mode(s) will affect the automation. Admittedly quite cumbersome as a workaround... ...and also unnecessary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas007 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 1 hour ago, polanoid said: To record RBA in newly recorded regions, you will need to use the "Record Automation with Audio/MIDI regions" mode from the Automation mode menu. Thanx @polanoid for the heads up, that was a piece of the puzzle I was missing, I guess. Nevertheless over here, I have to set automation to RBA and Read modes, otherwise the "Record Automation with Audio/MIDI regions" is non-selectable (greyed out). Once selected (even if greyed out) changing the mode to Write works for recording fader automation in the region using the track record button (like for other MIDI events recording procedure). However, once the fader automation (events) recorded in the region, the Write/Touch/Latch modes have seemingly no effect on them (like they would on TBA). Am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 12 minutes ago, Atlas007 said: I have to set automation to RBA and Read modes, otherwise the "Record Automation with Audio/MIDI regions" is non-selectable (greyed out). You have to be in Read mode however it doesn't matter if your automation button is set to "Track" or "Region": in both cases you should be able to select "Record Automation with Audio/MIDI regions". 13 minutes ago, Atlas007 said: Once selected (even if greyed out) changing the mode to Write works for recording fader automation in the region using the track record button (like for other MIDI events recording procedure). "Recording" really is completely unrelated to automation (and automation modes such as Touch, Latch or Write) so it shouldn't make any difference whether you are in Read, Touch, Latch or Write mode when you're recording something. 14 minutes ago, Atlas007 said: once the fader automation (events) recorded in the region, the Write/Touch/Latch modes have seemingly no effect on them (like they would on TBA). Am I missing something? You're getting the expected behavior: recording and automation are two unrelated features and one doesn't affect the other. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas007 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) Besides automation, what purpose the faders (events) are used for in Logic? Edited October 5, 2022 by Atlas007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas007 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 5 hours ago, David Nahmani said: "Recording" really is completely unrelated to automation (and automation modes such as Touch, Latch or Write) 5 hours ago, David Nahmani said: recording and automation are two unrelated features Hmmm! I am getting confused... After reading the documentation about Record live automation in Logic Pro: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 49 minutes ago, Atlas007 said: Besides automation, what purpose the faders (events) are used for in Logic? They are only used for automation. Their "MIDI Channel" determines what object is controlled (MIDI Channel 1 -> channel strip controls like Volume, Pan, Sends, MIDI Channel 2 -> Parameters of plug-in in first slot, MIDI Channel 3 -> Parameters of plug-in in 2nd slot, etc... Note that for Software Instrument channels, the first plug-in slot is the instrument plug-in!). The "Controller Number" determines which parameter is controlled (each parameter in a plug-in has a unique parameter number). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 Yes it's getting confusing because all these terms can be used to mean various things. I was trying to make a distinction between two different things: Recording by pressing the Record button. Recording track or region automation by setting the automation mode to Touch, Latch or Write and pressing the Play button. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 36 minutes ago, Atlas007 said: I am getting confused... After reading the documentation about Record live automation in Logic Pro: Maybe Apple should really replace "Recording" by "Writing" in that chapter... although this might be confusing as well, because "Writing" doesn't only happen in "Write" Mode (also in Touch and Latch)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas007 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 6 hours ago, David Nahmani said: Yes it's getting confusing because all these terms can be used to mean various things. I was trying to make a distinction between two different things: Recording by pressing the Record button. Recording track or region automation by setting the automation mode to Touch, Latch or Write and pressing the Play button. I guess I inadvertently contributed to the confusion in my post… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas007 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 6 hours ago, polanoid said: Maybe Apple should really replace "Recording" by "Writing" in that chapter... although this might be confusing as well, because "Writing" doesn't only happen in "Write" Mode (also in Touch and Latch)... Perhaps using the term "printing", "imprinting" or "inscribing" automation could fit the bill… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas007 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 @David Nahmani & @polanoid, thanx for your patience and help! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco 75 Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 On 10/4/2022 at 12:28 PM, David Nahmani said: That's one of the downsides of recording MIDI CC (vs using automation). Hi David, big fan of your books! So you mean it's never gonna change right? It will always create spikes when overwriting? Thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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