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problems with midi notes shifting and midi regions not staying trimmed


Harmonius
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Two things have been plaguing me since I started using Logic Pro a few years ago.

1) I have a midi region with notes that have been quantized. I then record new notes into this same region (well away from the existing notes). After recording the new notes I see that all the existing ones have shifted slightly to the left, so I have to quantize them again. This happens literally every time and I find it so irritating. Please tell me it's a setting or preference that I've somehow overlooked.

2) I trim the length of a midi region and then create a new region that follows the trimmed one on the same track. Moments later I see that the trimmed region has popped back to its previous length and now overlaps the new one. At first I thought this might have something to do with stray automation data inside the trimmed region, but it still happens even after I delete the automation data. And it happens every time I trim a region.

Does anybody else have these problems?

 

Using Logic Pro X 10.4.8 on late 2012 iMac running 10.13.6 with 32 GB of memory

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Thank you for offering to help me out, polanoid!

I did learn something about the shifting notes problem in preparing this test file:

First I played in the 4-note pattern starting at bar 2 and ending at bar 4. I then quantized that performance at 83% so all the notes were set pretty tight to the grid. Then I set a negative delay of -32 (120 ticks) for the region. I do this because otherwise long string articulations sound late relative to the click and in combination with shorter articulations.

Next I recorded the 1-bar pattern starting at bar 4. You can see that those midi notes are not yet quantized. I look back at the bit that I played previously (and quantized) and it has all shifted left by a small amount. Also I notice in the region inspector panel that my negative delay setting is gone (reset to 0 ticks).

So I tried playing in the second set of notes while skipping the application of negative delay setting and when I did that, the first bit but DID NOT shift. I also tried applying a larger negative delay and when I did that the prior notes shifted more. 

So, clearly, this has everything to do with the region delay setting, but I don't understand  A) why the delay setting applied to the region is undone when I play new midi notes into the region and B) why the original notes get shifted left. This forces me to constantly recheck note position and settings every time I play something new into an existing region.

I am having a hard time locating a file that demonstrates the region-trimming problem as I tend to create workarounds when this occurs, but I do intend to follow up with an example as soon as I can.

Thanks again for your assistance.

test1122a.zip

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6 hours ago, Harmonius said:

I look back at the bit that I played previously (and quantized) and it has all shifted left by a small amount. Also I notice in the region inspector panel that my negative delay setting is gone (reset to 0 ticks).

That's expected behaviour. The region needs to be "normalized" (i.e., all its modifying parameters like transposition and delay need to be added to the contained notes and then reset to 0 when merging new events to it (e.g. by recording). What else should Logic do in this case?

7 hours ago, Harmonius said:

A) why the delay setting applied to the region is undone when I play new midi notes into the region and B) why the original notes get shifted left.

It's not undone, it's applied permanently to the contained notes. Of course they all shift then. See above. The playback result is exactly the same.

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On 11/23/2022 at 12:22 PM, Harmonius said:

I trim the length of a midi region and then create a new region that follows the trimmed one on the same track. Moments later I see that the trimmed region has popped back to its previous length and now overlaps the new one.

That problem I can't reproduce at all with the project you posted

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9 hours ago, polanoid said:
16 hours ago, Harmonius said:

I look back at the bit that I played previously (and quantized) and it has all shifted left by a small amount. Also I notice in the region inspector panel that my negative delay setting is gone (reset to 0 ticks).

That's expected behaviour. The region needs to be "normalized" (i.e., all its modifying parameters like transposition and delay need to be added to the contained notes and then reset to 0 when merging new events to it (e.g. by recording). What else should Logic do in this case?

I guess I expected Logic to "keep" the modifying parameters applied to a region until they are changed. I am, after all assigning that delay parameter to the region itself as opposed to selected notes within it. My expectation was that any new notes added to the region would share the delay assigned to the region as a whole. But I hear you saying that I should not expect this?

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polanoid,

This is off topic, but if I still have your ear, I have always wondered about the following:

It seems like in the majority of tutorial videos that I've watched (and i am primarily interested in orchestral music using sample libraries, BTW) the standard seems to be to clip regions right to the bar, or precisely span from the beginning of the first note to the end of the last note in a phrase with no empty space on either end. So, based on the assumption that trimming a region limits the sounding duration of the region, wouldn't trimming a region that precisely, without any space on either end affect (cut off) the negative delay that I use on the front end and/or any reverberation or release trail from notes at the end?

 

Screen Shot 2022-11-27 at 1.39.06 AM.png

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13 hours ago, Harmonius said:

My expectation was that any new notes added to the region would share the delay assigned to the region as a whole. But I hear you saying that I should not expect this?

Exactly. If the region kept its delay settings, all your newly recorded notes would be shifted by that delay, i.e. the recording would sound 1/32 earlier than how you recorded it. The question is: why do you do a merge recording in the first place? Can't you just record into a separate region if you really need to keep the region's delay setting for whatever reason?

7 hours ago, Harmonius said:

based on the assumption that trimming a region limits the sounding duration of the region

That assumption is already false. A MIDI region can only limit the duration of the contained MIDI notes, not how long the associated (software or hardware) synth's output signal sounds (e.g. because of reverb or delay tails, oder because of a long release phase of the amp envelope).

This means the two regions in your screenshot would sound exactly the same.

To completely cut off the sound you would e.g. need to add some volume automation to the region which abruptly goes to -inf dB at the end of the region. Or bounce the region in place and trim the resulting audio region.

Edited by polanoid
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14 hours ago, polanoid said:

Exactly. If the region kept its delay settings, all your newly recorded notes would be shifted by that delay, i.e. the recording would sound 1/32 earlier than how you recorded it. The question is: why do you do a merge recording in the first place? Can't you just record into a separate region if you really need to keep the region's delay setting for whatever reason?

Thank you for helping me understand what's going on.

I guess I find it easier in the early stages of a project to work with a single region per track, since my starting template contains a fair number of tracks (shorts and longs for each instrument). So I hoped to be able to set up a region on each track, assign the appropriate delay to each region (once and for all) and know that whatever was in that region would always be in synch with the other tracks. Maybe I can continue to work in this fashion if I can get in the habit of resetting the delay parameter to zero before I merge record, although that could be made much easier if it was a toggle setting or key commandable.

After typing the above, I went back and tried applying the negative delay parameter to the TRACK rather than the region and (lo and behold) this seems to work in the intended fashion. I CAN merge record in a region and the  pre-existing notes do not shift and the delay parameter remains set. The delay range is more limited (-99 ticks maximum) but this should be adequate for my needs. Based on what you said, I don't understand why this approach works and the other doesn't, but I think this is what I was looking for—apply it once and be done with it. 

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