How to make sure that all the automation in the instrument is recorded?

[GeneralDisarray]

I'm not sure if this is a question the Logic forum or for the forum of the specific publisher of each instrument. I was creating a song, and one of the instruments was Spitfire Audio's Mercury. It's the one with the Chas Smith crazy instruments that he builds himself and are used by Hans Zimmer and many other people.

So I was playing around, playing one very long note that is like a base (it's a very atmos/pad song) and there are many parameters in the instrument. One parameter is the tune wheel for the instrument on the right, since Mercury loads two presets and you can use the MOD wheel to go between one or the other, keep it in the middle to merge both or anywhere in between.

So while I'm recording, I use the Magic Mouse and move my finger back and forth just barely so there are changes in the tune of the instrument on the right, but then I realize that Logic is not showing me any automation being recorded.

To achieve that, I right click on the Tune wheel, and start moving one of the knobs in my MIDI keyboard, which Logic tells me it's CC 78. So next time I record, it does indeed record the automation from me moving the wheel. But, this gets recorded in Logic as Ch.1 Vibrato Delay:

It does, however, open the correct parameter for automation, but with nothing in it:

And yes, I can copy the automation from the first to the second one:

But it sounds to me like this shouldn't be this way. And then I'm thinking, well, this instrument has a lot of parameters. What if I want to play with another one over time while I'm recording? I want that to send the automation to Logic as soon as I start moving it, and not to some other parameter, but to the correct one, the one that matches the instrument.

So for example, if you see the full instrument above, if I decide while recording to move the pan, offset, trim, etc back and forth, I want that to get recorded as automation and showing with the correct names. And this goes for every other instrument and player, Analog Lab V, Opus, Kontakt, you name it. I just want the MIDI version of what would happen if I was recording to an audio file, except you can't edit the notes and instruments, much less parameters, in an audio file. But I want that MIDI track to sound when I play it back exactly the same as when I recorded it, all notes in there, and all automation lanes in there as well.

Is this something that can be achieved, and is it something on the Logic side, or on the instrument's side?

[des99]

Generally, Spitfire instruments can be controlled via regular MIDI, or automation. You shouldn't try to use both methods, as they are different, and have different mechanics in Logic (MIDI is recorded in "record" mode, automation is "recorded" in play mode, with an automation write mode selected).

So are you saying that if you put the track into automation "Latch" mode, press play, and move your desired control, the plugin does not send automation events to Logic to show up as automation?

(I don't have that library, but I do have other Spitfire libraries in their own plugin and automation of their parameters works as expected, for me in Logic.)

Edited February 1 by des99

[GeneralDisarray]

1 minute ago, des99 said:

So are you saying that if you put the track into automation "Latch" mode, press play, and move your desired control, the plugin does not send automation events to Logic to show up as automation?

I don't use much the latch mode or any of those, I find them kind of buggy. Even the write mode, the one that gives the big message that the world is going to end if you select that, doesn't work as the manual says, because it's supposed to overwrite everything in the parameters you send, i.e. MOD and EXP, and in reality it ends up giving me crocodile teeth because it keeps going back and forth between the old automation and the new one.

Every time I want to redo an automation I don't like how it turned out, I just delete it, or at least delete that section, press record and move the faders again. So the new automation is the one I just did. Obviously if I have to edit just a small portion, I use the pencil.

But when it comes to other things that are not MOD and EXP, but rather very specific parameters exclusive to each instrument, like the Tune wheel I mentioned, that doesn't get recorded. That's what I'm trying to achieve.

[des99]

Let's not go into the various ways to use automation, and the differences between track and region automation, and how to use automation modes etc here, or what methods to use for a given situation - that's a bit out of scope for this thread.

I'm trying to help you get this working - so, using the method I suggested above, does the "Tune" wheel generate automation data, or not? (Not all parameters are exposed as automatable by the host).

Or perhaps you're asking something else that I'm not understanding properly..?

[polanoid]

4 hours ago, GeneralDisarray said:

I don't use much the latch mode or any of those, I find them kind of buggy.

They are not. You have to use them correctly. And understand what they are for.

[GeneralDisarray]

20 hours ago, des99 said:

I'm trying to help you get this working - so, using the method I suggested above, does the "Tune" wheel generate automation data, or not? (Not all parameters are exposed as automatable by the host).

I was so eager to finish the work day to test this. And yes, if I set the track to Latch mode and hit play, then move the mouse around the wheels and faders in the Solar Mercury GUI and start changing the values up and down, that actually gets saved as automation, although it's not region, it's track automation. But well, it gets saved, so that's great! Thanks!

[des99]

Ok, so automation works in the plugin as expected. 👍

Region automation works a little differently, and it sounds like perhaps you're not aware of this. By default, region automation requires a region to record into unless you have "Record Automation with MIDI Regions" checked from the automation mode menu.

It should behave exactly the same though with regards to plugin parameter automation, just with RBA, rather than TBA, which for your workflow, you may or may not find more convenient.

Give it a try, and post back if you aren't able to make it work - you'll to switch the automation to Region-based instead of Track-based, and don't try to use both to record conflicting automation data for the same parameter, or headaches will ensue.

Edited February 1 by des99

[GeneralDisarray]

16 hours ago, polanoid said:

They are not. You have to use them correctly. And understand what they are for.

And I bet you're right. But keep reading the manual section about this, and my experience doesn't reflect the manual at all. In fact I had posted  about this months ago and it seems you guys had replied, so I have to read all of that again, but basically when I want to re-record MOD and EXP, I have to delete manually the automation for them, because if not I get this:

Quote

Touch: Plays back automation in the same way as Read mode. You can modify the value of the chosen automation parameter by moving controls in Touch mode. After the fader or knob is released, the parameter follows existing automation on the track.

 

Latch: Works like Touch mode, but after the fader or knob is released, the new parameter value replaces existing automation on the track.

Write: Erases existing automation on the track as the playhead passes over it. Records the new control movement or deletes the existing data if you do nothing.

 

Well, all these three modes create something like what you see above. Monster teeth. Now, if I delete it by selecting all the points in the automation pane of the piano roll, then go to the start and hit record, MOD and EXP get recorded just fine.

But yeah, I know it's perfectly possible that I'm using this the wrong way. But what can I do? Read the manual...s? That's 1,287 pages for regular manual, 761 for the instruments one, and 358 for the effects one. So that's 2,406 pages total, plus the manuals for all the Eastwest instruments, that's probably around 500 pages, then all the Spitfire ones, etc, etc, in at best 3 hours during weekdays after work, if I'm not too exhausted to do anything else but crash on the bed, then hopefully 4 hours each Saturday and Sunday. That would take me a few years, so the best I can hope for is get my hands on these things and do searches in the PDFs, then this and other forums, and just Google searches.

If I could go back to my 20's while remaining in the 2020 decade, I would have so much more time...

 

 

 

 

[des99]

1 hour ago, GeneralDisarray said:

But what can I do? Read the manual...s? That's 1,287 pages for regular manual, 761 for the instruments one, and 358 for the effects one. So that's 2,406 pages total, plus the manuals for all the Eastwest instruments, that's probably around 500 pages, then all the Spitfire ones, etc, etc, in at best 3 hours during weekdays after work, if I'm not too exhausted to do anything else but crash on the bed, then hopefully 4 hours each Saturday and Sunday. That would take me a few years, so the best I can hope for is get my hands on these things and do searches in the PDFs, then this and other forums, and just Google searches.

I mean, if you want to learn about automation, then maybe just the section about automation might be a good place to start, setting up some quick tests to get used to the options and behaviours, followed up with a question or two here if you're not sure how something works... Pretty sure it will take a lot less effort to get through than you think - the manual is pretty terse these days (unlike how it used to be, which it would actually go into a bit more useful detail.)

I don't see what you're seeing, so it's more likely that you've doing something weird that you don't really understand yet because you're not yet up on everything (no problem, this is deep software, and we all have to learn this stuff somehow).

If you want to diagnose your monster teeth issue, start with a new empty template, create one track and add that software instrument. Put the track into track automation, latch mode, press play, and move your example control. Try a few different controls. If nothing is "monster teething", then that's good, it's working as expected. If you find a control that does generate this, it could be the plugin is misbehaving (I've never seen this, but it's not impossible).

If that all checks out, start again with a new empty project, and do something similar with region based automation.

If you come up with a reproducible problem, then post the details and we can look at it. Likewise, if there is something specific you're still not sure of after the manual, and playing with automation for a bit, we'll be happy to try to clarify. And then you'll be on a good path to successfully automation use, rather than confusion and saying it's all just buggy...

[David Nahmani]

8 hours ago, GeneralDisarray said:

but basically when I want to re-record MOD and EXP, I have to delete manually the automation for them

What's your workflow exactly? Modulation and Expression are MIDI CC events, not automation - so they don't behave the same.

Automation is something you use to directly record the changes you make on a channel strip or plug-in parameter (volume, mute, low-cut frequency, etc.) whereas Modulation and Expression are controllers that can be assigned to channel strip or plug-in parameters in order to remotely control them. 

[polanoid]

9 hours ago, GeneralDisarray said:

basically when I want to re-record MOD and EXP, I have to delete manually the automation for them, because if not I get this

You are not recording Automation, you are recording standard MIDI Control Change events. If you have the mode for Overlapping MIDI Recordings set to Merge, these events get merged just like MIDI Notes would. That's the reason why you're seeing these curves, they are just the result of merging two recordings of the same continuous MIDI Controller. There's some workarounds for that. You can e.g. create a separate track using the same instrument on which you record the MIDI Controller. And set the mode for Overlapping MIDI Recordings to Create Take Folders. That way, you can switch between your different automation recordings, without affecting the playing notes at all.

[polanoid]

10 hours ago, GeneralDisarray said:

that actually gets saved as automation, although it's not region, it's track automation

In order to write Region Automation using the Touch/Write/Latch modes you need to switch the Track's mode from  to   . Still this will only work for Channel Strip faders and Plug-In controls, not for MIDI CC messages coming from your MIDI controller that are not mapped to any automatable control via Controller Assignments. And, as @des99 already pointed out, it only writes to already existing regions.

9 hours ago, GeneralDisarray said:

But what can I do?

Ask here. And don't claim Logic is buggy before you fully understand what you're doing. This forum is a great resource to help you with that. Some people here have even read the manual.

Edited February 2 by polanoid

[ravez]

I really wish Logic worked like Cubase in this regard, where you have the option to replace CC curves only, without having to use automation or other hacks.

[David Nahmani]

Just now, ravez said:

I really wish Logic worked like Cubase in this regard, where you have the option to replace CC curves only, without having to use automation or other hacks.

I've never seen that (not familiar with Cubase) but that sounds like a great feature indeed. 

[ravez]

It's this one, i'm sure a lot of people would be really happy to see this implemented

[polanoid]

12 hours ago, ravez said:

It's this one, i'm sure a lot of people would be really happy to see this implemented

You should report this to Apple via their feedback page.

[GeneralDisarray]

On 2/2/2023 at 2:52 AM, David Nahmani said:

What's your workflow exactly?

Chaotic. Learning stuff as I go, when I have the time. But you'd be surprised, I have learned a lot that way.

On 2/2/2023 at 2:52 AM, David Nahmani said:

Modulation and Expression are MIDI CC events, not automation - so they don't behave the same.

Well, that makes things more confusing. I thought that basically, automation was the Logic name for animation in video software like After Effects, Final Cut, etc. Meaning keyframes, which I was sure that in Logic were named automation points.

And I see your distinction, but it is really confusing. In the world of video, no matter what software you use, you can animate with keyframes. There are no different technologies like MIDI vs. plugin automation. It's keyframes and that's it. Some NLEs like Premiere do have track keyframing as well as region keyframing. But that's about it.

On 2/2/2023 at 3:51 AM, polanoid said:

Ask here. And don't claim Logic is buggy before you fully understand what you're doing.

That's very appreciated, and this has become my favorite forum because I haven't encountered any trolls trying to pick up a fight, but rather people with a lot of knowledge that are happy to engage in a civilized discussion, from which I have learned quite a lot.

Now, it's not that I claim Logic is buggy on everything. But Apple sometimes drops the ball on many of their products for not doing proper testing, and sometimes they are minor things that won't affect users much, but sometimes they have things that make you feel like an idiot for having shelled $5,000 + tax on an Apple computer. Case in point, the chaotic display management when you have two or more monitors of the same brand and model, that most likely you purchased at the same time because you wanted to have the same picture quality on both as if they were a big ultra wide monitor, which would be really hard to afford if it had the same definition as two 4k side by side.

9 out of 10 times that I put the monitors to sleep, or I go somewhere and eventually they go to sleep because the Mac stops sending them any signal, when I come back and press any key to wake them up, the monitors are swapped. It's as if someone had come when I was gone and physically swapped them, but since that didn't happen, it's obvious that it's a giant bug, and submitting feedback, calling them and being two hours on the phone with a tech service rep, they just do nothing, and I learned that many other people have the same problem.

No $5,000 computer should have worse display management than a $500 Dell running Windows. It's pathetic. 

And with Logic, I'd be happy to learn that some things I categorize as bugs are not, but the issue with the toolbar not showing all the buttons after selecting them and setting that as default, and having to into the settings, then disable advanced features, then enable them again, only to having to do that again the next time you open Logic, that's a giant bug. And while it was happening in my first install of Logic with the macOS that came with the machine I was open to the possibility that it could be something in that installation that was corrupt. 

But after wiping the internal drive, installing Ventura, and installing Logic as the last thing, and seeing that all over again, well, that's not my system for sure. 

[des99]

34 minutes ago, GeneralDisarray said:

Well, that makes things more confusing. I thought that basically, automation was the Logic name for animation in video software like After Effects, Final Cut, etc. Meaning keyframes, which I was sure that in Logic were named automation points.

And I see your distinction, but it is really confusing. In the world of video, no matter what software you use, you can animate with keyframes. There are no different technologies like MIDI vs. plugin automation. It's keyframes and that's it. Some NLEs like Premiere do have track keyframing as well as region keyframing. But that's about it.

Ok, bear with me, I'll break it down. It's a common confusion point, and I've done this before but it might take a while to turf up old posts... 🙂

Yes, automation is similar in concept to animation keyframes. The automation system, which is modelled on how automation originally was developed for mixing consoles, is designed to let you "record" movements to mixer and FX settings over time.

In this case, you are directly controlling plugin parameters, or Logic's mixer parameters. If you make an automation point to set a filter cutoff to 50%, Logic sets that parameter directly.

The automation system is distinct from Logic's MIDI sequencer, in the same way that a hardware mixer, with inbuilt automation, is different from a connected MIDI sequencer running the instruments.

So, the automation system is driven by the track/region automation status (ie to record automation, you would not hit "Record" in Logic to record to the sequencer, you hit Play with a track in an automation write mode, and write automation that way).

Ok, when you move a plugin parameter with your mouse, in an automation write mode, it will generate automation events. *None* of this so far has *anything* to do with MIDI - it's an entirely internal to Logic thing.

When you want to record MIDI data, that's using Logic's "record" mode to record that MIDI data - MIDI notes, pitch bend messages, control change numbers etc, into the sequencer. This is entirely independent of automation. You are recording MIDI data, not internal plugin parameter changes.

Hopefully that should be clear enough so far.

Now the confusion often starts to come in because you can *control plugin parameters via MIDI controls* - and in some conceptually different ways. For example:

- Record MIDI knob twiddling in the sequencer for filter cutoff, which gets played back to a plugin synth which reacts by changing it's filter cutoff in real time

- MIDI learning a MIDI CC message from a knob in the plugin, and recording the knob twiddling in the sequencer (same effect as above)

- MIDI learning a MIDI CC message from a knob in the plugin, which changes the filter parameter in the synth, which generates automation events, being recorded in an automation write mode

- Using Logic's Controller Assignments to learn an incoming MIDI CC message from a knob directly to the synth's parameters. In this case, the MIDI CC actually gets filtered from Logic before the sequencer (by design), and controls the synth's filter curoff parameter directly. It can't be recorded using the sequencer, as the sequencer sees no data at all, and has to be recorded by the automation system (same effect as the previous point)

And *then* you have the differences between track and region automation, and the (always extra confusing) part that for reasons (can't type it all out in one go), Logic now uses the same editing interface for region automation (internal mixer/plugin events in the automation system) *AND* for recorded MIDI CC data in regions recorded in the sequencer.

To new users, all of this is not obvious (to say the least!), and we see confusion around how to control/record/playback plugin parameters a lot.

In short - MIDI CC's are incoming MIDI messages that in Logic can either be recorded, and played back, in the sequencer, *or* be used as surrogates to remotely drive plugin parameters, the changing of which generates automation events to be recorded using the automation system.

The automation system *doesn't deal with MIDI at all*.

The editing interface for region automation is also used to edit MIDI data in the sequencer, so the distinction between these things is fuzzy in this area. (Logic didn't used to behave this way, it kept automation editing and MIDI editing separate, to enforce the distinction between them. It was changed for confusing, but understandable reasons. It is how it is now, and works for most people, but does not help reinforce the fundamental concepts at work - resulting in Logic mostly doing what people want, even if they aren't sure exactly what they are doing.)

It's helps to think of a studio setup with a bunch of instruments being controlled by a sequencer, and a completely separate mixer and FX units, being controlled by automation, to make the distinction between the two concepts more concrete.

Sorry, stream of consciousness typing, but that will (hopefully) either have illuminated some key principles, or it will have confused you even more. Feel free to ask questions... 😄

 

Edited February 3 by des99

[des99]

35 minutes ago, GeneralDisarray said:

I'd be happy to learn that some things I categorize as bugs are not, but the issue with the toolbar not showing all the buttons after selecting them and setting that as default, and having to into the settings, then disable advanced features, then enable them again, only to having to do that again the next time you open Logic, that's a giant bug.

That's a bug yes, for sure, discussed here quite some times already. It doesn't happen for everybody.

Edited February 3 by des99

[scg]

4 hours ago, GeneralDisarray said:

...but the issue with the toolbar not showing all the buttons after selecting them and setting that as default, and having to into the settings, then disable advanced features, then enable them again, only to having to do that again the next time you open Logic...

Just +1'ing this. As noted, it's been discussed here before - it's something I've observed as well. Can't remember if you said you submitted a bug report on that, but if you haven't, you might do so, just so they know it's affecting a fair number of users.

[GeneralDisarray]

Thanks @des99, that clears things up a bit, but it's good you realize how confusing it is for someone without any studio experience and at best some experience with DAWs. To me I see keyframes being created, which means a specific parameter is altered over time and those keyframes are the thing that tells the system how much of that parameter the user wanted at a specific point in the song. So whether it's MIDI events, or instrument automation, it's hard to tell them apart, but your explanation makes that clearer.

The thing I'm missing, after having done some experiments just now, is why, if you're recording and playing something, the instrument automation only gets recorded in track mode, not in region mode. Not that it bothers me tremendously now, it's certainly easier to record the notes and then play them back while moving the faders and knobs in the instrument's GUI, but I don't understand why it gets recorded in track mode and not in region mode, but when playing it back in latch mode or write mode, you can record it to region mode.

[GeneralDisarray]

2 hours ago, scg said:

Just +1'ing this. As noted, it's been discussed here before - it's something I've observed as well. Can't remember if you said you submitted a bug report on that, but if you haven't, you might do so, just so they know it's affecting a fair number of users.

I did, but it's pointless. Having filed a number of bug reports of Apple hardware and software, one of them far worse than this (not in Logic though) and having spent two hours on the phone with an Apple tech rep, I can tell you they don't do squat. Maybe if Tim Cook is your friend and you show him the problem, it would be fixed in two minutes. Otherwise, it's a waste of time. I've been talking to other people about the display issue and they have told me that they have been filing bug reports for years and Apple didn't do anything about it.

[des99]

Just now, GeneralDisarray said:

Thanks @des99, that clears things up a bit, but it's good you realize how confusing it is for someone without any studio experience and at best some experience with DAWs.

I've been doing online Logic "foruming" since the 90s. I've pretty much seen every type of user, and every type of problem, thousands of times over! 🙂

1 minute ago, GeneralDisarray said:

To me I see keyframes being created, which means a specific parameter is altered over time and those keyframes are the thing that tells the system how much of that parameter the user wanted at a specific point in the song.

Yep. Remember, in something like After Effects, you're generally not using a hardware box to send data to AFX to control those parameters, so there is no need for a communication protocol like MIDI. This is not the case with a DAW, because MIDI is how hardware (keyboards, knobs etc) remote control Logic. And people expect to use knobs etc, to control internal parameters of Logic.

2 minutes ago, GeneralDisarray said:

The thing I'm missing, after having done some experiments just now, is why, if you're recording and playing something, the instrument automation only gets recorded in track mode, not in region mode.

I generally use track automation (TBA) 95% of the time, including for my instruments.

And you *can* use region-based automation (RBA) while recording, as long as you make sure the option to do this is ticked, as mentioned above. (I'm assuming you did this, as per my explanation above).

The concept is different as track automation writes (let's use read/write for automation as distinct from recording to the sequencer) to a secret "hidden" track contained underneath every track. RBA, instead, writes automation into regions, so you can use convenient editing tools like copying/looping/moving stuff around - but generally needs a region to write into, otherwise there is nothing to "hold" it (unlike with TBA, which always has a container/"holder" available).

As a general distinction, I would use track automation like a conventional mixer automation system, and use RBA for performance-related automation (say, changing parameters in a synth part) that you want to move around and edit along with the notes. 

So, your current problem is that RBA based automation isn't doing what you want? If you could be specific about what you are trying to do, I can setup an example to demonstrate...

With all complex software, 75% of the learning curve is understanding the fundamental concepts. Try starting with something like Blender (to continue the graphics app example), with a novice understanding of 3D concepts. That's not straightforward either, I can tell you! 😉

6 minutes ago, GeneralDisarray said:

I did, but it's pointless. I can tell you they don't do squat.

And I can tell you you are incorrect. If what you mean is "I tell them I have a problem, and want them to drop everything and fix it for me right away, and let me know through the process the status of my bug report", that's not the process.

8 minutes ago, GeneralDisarray said:

Otherwise, it's a waste of time. I've been talking to other people about the display issue and they have told me that they have been filing bug reports for years and Apple didn't do anything about it.

It's not a waste of time, it helps Apple prioritise their development efforts. Have you read the update notes of most Logic releases? How subtle, obscure and difficult to track down some of those bugs must be to fix? And the quantity of fixes they document? This doesn't happen if people don't submit bug reports of issues they are having.

In short, bug reports are generally not about you, they should be thought of as "Hey there's this thing I see with your software that looks like a bug - let me demonstrate", with which they can then determine how they want to proceed with it - investigate, fix, leave it for later as low priority, etc  - ie, it's the users wanting to help make the software that's important to them better.

It's not about getting quick feedback and satisfaction - at least with most larger developers. Smaller devs tend to be a bit more personal for the most part.

And for macOS bug reports - I don't know how many they receive on a daily basis, but it's got to be tens of thousands, that all need to be triaged, marked as duplicate, forwarded to the correct team, and prioritised for development effort. And knowing some of the folks involved in both bug triaging, and development at Apple, I can tell you they care quite a bit, if you're prepared to take my word for it.

But "they didn't fix my personal bugs yet!" isn't something I have a lot of sympathy for. We all have issues we'd like changed, fixed, whatever. As one recent-ish example in Logic, we've been wanting the sequencer bottleneck issue changed/fixed/improved since, oh, probably Logic 2.x or so... that one only took 25 years to get done... Such is the nature of complex software development, at a large scale, with tools that need to cater for a wide variety of users. It's not fun, but it's the reality, and imo there's not that much point in getting frustrated by it. Let it go, submit bug reports if you want to, and get on with things, or workaround the issue in the meantime. And if one day it gets fixed, so much the better.

Modern tools are so awesome, it's easy to forget and focus on tiny complaints that in some cases things aren't perfect. So those of us who *have* been doing this since the 80s or before, I can tell you, making music now is a *DREAM* in terms of what we can do, and the ease with which we can do it, and the cost of entry.