What determines region layer order?

[oortone]

If I put regions over each other (Drag: Overlap), what determines the layer priority, i.e. what is played during overlaps? This is similar to z-index in desktop publishing, where you normally can "pop" some layer to the top if needed. I don't find anything that corresponds to that in Logic. I experiemented with three layers but seems I can't change the order. The one on top (which will be shown on top when none of the regions are selected) stays on top as far as I can tell.

Edited February 6, 2023 by oortone

[fuzzfilth]

The Region with the latest starting point plays. If regions have identical starting points, the results are undefined.

[David Nahmani]

If regions have identical starting points, the shortest region plays. 

If regions have identical starting points and identical lengths, the region that was placed at that location first plays. 

[volovicg]

3 hours ago, David Nahmani said:

 If regions have identical starting points and identical lengths, the region that was placed at that location first plays. 

and if you go into the event list and up to the region level - you can change which plays first by changing the order  there.  

[David Nahmani]

5 hours ago, volovicg said:

if you go into the event list and up to the region level - you can change which plays first by changing the order  there.  

Wow, that's great, I did not know that! 🙂 

[polanoid]

To complete this, overlapping MIDI Regions play simultaneously.

[polanoid]

10 hours ago, volovicg said:

and if you go into the event list and up to the region level - you can change which plays first by changing the order  there.  

How exactly would one do that (without changing the region's start position)? Logic sorts regions by its own rules AFAIK. 

14 hours ago, fuzzfilth said:

If regions have identical starting points, the results are undefined.

The results are well defined, see David's reply

Edited February 7, 2023 by polanoid

[fuzzfilth]

3 minutes ago, polanoid said:

results are well defined

Yes, I wasn't aware of that. 

[polanoid]

14 hours ago, oortone said:

If I put regions over each other (Drag: Overlap), what determines the layer priority, i.e. what is played during overlaps

For Audio: The Region whose start point in the event list is the closest before the playhead wins. When two regions have the same start point, the one that is last in the event list is the closest to the playhead, so it wins. Regions that are longer are sorted before shorter ones at the same start positions.

Regions (playing via the same channel strip) that have the same start position and  the same length will not have their sort order changed by Logic's sorting algorithm. They will keep their relative order in the event list (and the one which comes last wins).

All that said, I would generally not recommend to have large percentages of audio regions overlapping with others, this can make the song structure very confusing.

Edited February 7, 2023 by polanoid

[polanoid]

15 hours ago, oortone said:

The one on top (which will be shown on top when none of the regions are selected) stays on top as far as I can tell.

If you really need switchable layers for audio regions, you shouldn't use overlapping regions on the same track for that. There isn't even a visual representation for overlapping regions, as you already noted, the region drawn on top (which is determined by sort order and selection state) is the only visible one.

Instead, you can create multiple tracks using the same channel strip and switch them on or off (like layers) using the Track On/Off switch . Or use Take Folders, or Track Alternatives, whatever fits your workflow best

Edited February 7, 2023 by polanoid

[oortone]

Wow, this was really complicated. Thanks for sorting all this out. I'll have to read it many times 🙂

I agree overlapping regions seems like a really bad idea in Logic obviously, but what I don't get is why they are not represented in a similar fashion to what you get when recording multiple takes on the same track; I believe it's called "comptrack". I mean, they have a nice interface for this and basically it's the same thing. To prioritize overlapping regions. The user instead of a sorting scheme would be in charge this way.

Edited February 9, 2023 by oortone

[oortone]

On 2/7/2023 at 2:41 PM, polanoid said:

If you really need switchable layers for audio regions, you shouldn't use overlapping regions on the same track for that. There isn't even a visual representation for overlapping regions, as you already noted, the region drawn on top (which is determined by sort order and selection state) is the only visible one.

Instead, you can create multiple tracks using the same channel strip and switch them on or off (like layers) using the Track On/Off switch . Or use Take Folders, or Track Alternatives, whatever fits your workflow best

Ok, that's an option but in these cases plugin settings and other channel stuff are still separate per track, right? Which alternative would be most like comping where there's only one mixer channel but many overlapping regions?

[fuzzfilth]

No, as mentioned, multiple Tracks can play through the same Channel.

[polanoid]

1 hour ago, fuzzfilth said:

No, as mentioned, multiple Tracks can play through the same Channel.

For audio, playback-wise, this makes no difference though. Only one audio region can play at a time over a single channel strip, so the rules for overlapping region laid out above still apply. Of course, visually, this approach cleans things up a bit...

8 hours ago, oortone said:

Which alternative would be most like comping where there's only one mixer channel but many overlapping regions?

You can not have many overlapping regions playing simultaneously through one mixer channel, so I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve here. Take Folders would indeed be the best approach if you want to easily switch between overlapping regions.

[polanoid]

8 hours ago, oortone said:

but what I don't get is why they are not represented in a similar fashion to what you get when recording multiple takes on the same track

The option to have overlapping regions is sometimes handy when you drag regions around and drop them temporarily over other regions. Would be very annoying if Logic would always remove the overlapping areas in this case. But generally, for playback they don't make sense (and may cause confusion as this thread shows).  

[oortone]

2 hours ago, fuzzfilth said:

No, as mentioned, multiple Tracks can play through the same Channel.

Ah, yes. I was a bit confused since all the processing is still on all sub tracks with the summing option (the folder option is like VCA so not quite the same thing), but since I can put that processing on the summing instead and remove it on the subchannels it's fine. Otherwise I would have to alter parameters on all sub tracks every time which is impractical. Thanks.

[oortone]

37 minutes ago, polanoid said:

For audio, playback-wise, this makes no difference though. Only one audio region can play at a time over a single channel strip, so the rules for overlapping region laid out above still apply. Of course, visually, this approach cleans things up a bit...

You can not have many overlapping regions playing simultaneously through one mixer channel, so I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve here. Take Folders would indeed be the best approach if you want to easily switch between overlapping regions.

Actually, using summing track as fuzzfilth propose they can play simultaneously although technically they are many channels, but from a practical view that's fine by me. Not precisely the same as true layered editing but ok.

[oortone]

33 minutes ago, polanoid said:

The option to have overlapping regions is sometimes handy when you drag regions around and drop them temporarily over other regions. Would be very annoying if Logic would always remove the overlapping areas in this case. But generally, for playback they don't make sense (and may cause confusion as this thread shows).  

Layered editing definitely makes sense (like comp tracks and other solutions in some other editors) but perhaps does not fit so well in the overall Logic concept.

I will probably not bother with layers when using Logic since playback order is defined by an algorithm and not by me. Summing tracks seems to be the best bet for me here.

Thanks for the help.

[fuzzfilth]

1 hour ago, oortone said:

summing track as fuzzfilth propose

Uh, I didn't. There's a few different concepts at work here. I'll try to clarify:

- Since audio functionality was added in Logic 2.0, long before Take Folders where implemented (and brilliantly so, I might add), the core concept of Audio Regions (recordings) vs. Audio Tracks (tape recorder tracks) vs. Audio Channels (mixer channels) is that you can have:

• non-overlapping Regions sequentially on one Track (no surprises here, WYSIWYG)
• overlapping Regions sequentially on one Track. As mentioned earlier, that later Region cuts off the previous one, this lets you edit and shift Regions quickly without needing to additionally trim the end of a previous Region. No summing takes place.
• overlapping Regions on one Track where one shorter Region starts later than the long Region and ends earlier than the long Region. Audio will cut from the earlier starting, long Region to the later, short one and back to the long when the short one ends. The problem here is that the short Region can (and frequently does) get invisibly tucked under the long one, making you scratch your head days or weeks later why you don't see what you hear. No summing takes place.
• simultaneous Regions on many Tracks which all play through the same Channel. This is audibly identical to overlapping Regions on one Track, but with much better visual representation. No summing takes place.
• one Track per Channel. That's the usual mode when multitracking, simultaneous Regions across Tracks all play at the same time, Channels will get summed in the destination.

- Since Take Folders came to be, previous points 2, 3 and 4 can be dealt with much better. But sometimes the old way is still just faster for a quick fix, and also there's folks who can't adapt to Take Folders. This and backwards compatibility is the reason it still exists.

- All of this is completely independent from the even newer concept of Track Stacks with Summing Track Stacks and Folder Track Stacks. We can go into more detail here if necessary.

Edited February 10, 2023 by fuzzfilth

[polanoid]

18 minutes ago, fuzzfilth said:

Uh, I didn't.

😄