More Key’s than Major / Minor

[ManFromNapa]

I’d love to see more options for Key Signature than Major & Minor.  Dorian, Phrygian, etc…. If nothing more than to just correctly communicate with any collaborators.

[monotom]

Those aren't key signatures, they're modes. I'm not sure how useful your suggestion would be for any composition that doesn't stick to one mode.

Edited March 12, 2023 by monotom

[ManFromNapa]

Major (Ionian) and minor (aeolian) are technically both modes also.  While both use the same notes they are musically different.  As is D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc….

Edited March 13, 2023 by ManFromNapa

[Atlas007]

Key signature refers to the number and position of flats and sharps symbols in a staff, which aren’t changing in modes (AFAIK).

For instance a C ionian mode will have no such symbols in the staff; same for a D in dorian mode; same for an E in phrygian mode; and so on.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Atlas007

[ManFromNapa]

Agreed. C major, D Dorian etc… all have the same notes (no sharps or flats).  Relative modes share the same # of sharps or flats.  We all agree to that.  I typed “key signature “ because that what Logic refers to it as.
 

Logic allows you to pick between major and minor keys right now.  Why?  Because while C major and A minor share the same notes, they are different.  Because the root note is different they resolve different.  They sound different.  C major resolves on C.  A minor resolves on A.  
 

D Dorian shares the same notes, but the dorian mode sounds different than a major or minor.  It resolves on D.  It uses the same notes as C major and A minor, but the Dorian scale and key sound different. 

So why ask for this?  I’ll admit maybe it’s just me being picky, but I think if we can be specific about the exact mode we are using, then many of the tools in Logic (and other 3rd party plugins) could do better.  It also makes it easier to communicate when sharing a project.  
 

There is a reason Logic allows you to specific they key you are in.  Let’s be exacting about it. 

[gacki]

To put this into perspective: This is something that even most notation software doesn't do.

 

[Atlas007]

At this point, I think that Logic deals only with data, not interpretation of same, which modes are. Logic can deal (musically speaking) with rhythmic aspect of the data with a fairly good proficiency but pitchwise it remains quite limited to be honest.

[ManFromNapa]

2 hours ago, Atlas007 said:

At this point, I think that Logic deals only with data, not interpretation of same, which modes are. Logic can deal (musically speaking) with rhythmic aspect of the data with a fairly good proficiency but pitchwise it remains quite limited to be honest.

 Not my first bad idea, won’t be my last!  🤣🤣🤣

[monotom]

2 hours ago, Atlas007 said:

At this point, I think that Logic deals only with data, not interpretation of same, which modes are.

I'm not sure what you're saying but there's plenty of fun to be had with modes, whether predefined or of your own making. I made a very quick, very crappy video but it serves the purpose of showing how easy it is to play with modes in e.g. sequencer:  

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Lpc6iKCqTN2kJnM68
 

2 hours ago, Atlas007 said:

Logic can deal (musically speaking) with rhythmic aspect of the data with a fairly good proficiency but pitchwise it remains quite limited to be honest.

Again not sure what you mean exactly but if playing with modes starts to feel a bit lame or you want to get hands on with pitch, you could start with trying some of the dozens of temperaments (or again, create some of your own).

[David Nahmani]

On 3/14/2023 at 6:04 AM, ManFromNapa said:

Logic allows you to pick between major and minor keys right now.  Why?

One of the reasons is so that Apple Loops that may be neither minor nor major will be transposed to the correct key when dragged into your project. 

[ManFromNapa]

Yes. So what if I’m working I Dorian?  It would be nice to have loop transposed.  That being said, I’m sure Logic only transcribed in a “linear” fashion.  
 

 

[David Nahmani]

10 hours ago, ManFromNapa said:

So what if I’m working I Dorian?

Then choose the equivalent minor key. If I'm working in F# dorian then I set the key to F# minor. That way Apple Loops will be transposed to F# so anything that works with the dorian mode will be played in the right key. 

[Atlas007]

That (F# dorian) would use the same notes as the E major scale, but the scale’s root would be on F#.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Atlas007

[analogika]

The only reason to distinguish between, say C minor and Eb major in a tool like Logic is when you're using Nashville chord notation, so the tonic, relative V, VI, etc. are shifted accordingly. 

Beyond that, it is completely irrelevant whether you're working in Eb major (ionic), F dorian, G phrygian, C minor (aeolic) — they're all exactly the same notes. 

[Atlas007]

7 hours ago, analogika said:

Beyond that, it is completely irrelevant whether you're working in Eb major (ionic), F dorian, G phrygian, C minor (aeolic) — they're all exactly the same notes.

Except that the root key differ from one scale to the other. AFAIK, Logic isn’t smart enough to distinguish same (yet)…

[analogika]

10 minutes ago, Atlas007 said:

Except that the root key differ from one scale to the other. AFAIK, Logic isn’t smart enough to distinguish same (yet)…

Yes, but that’s completely irrelevant to notation. It’s only of interest when you’re working in Nashville notation (degrees, e. g. I V IV VIm IIm V). 
 

If you give me three flats and have me play an Ab, that’s going to be Lydian, unless noted otherwise. 
 

If you give me three flats and tell me to play a IV, that’s probably going to be a Lydian Ab, but if the tonic is the minor parallel… 

Logic can do this (I use it all the time), and it can distinguish between major and minor tonics. Can’t say I’ve ever missed Nashville notation for any other modes, though. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by analogika

[gacki]

On 3/24/2023 at 9:14 PM, analogika said:

If you give me three flats and have me play an Ab, that’s going to be Lydian, unless noted otherwise. 

Or maybe not. Even in a "standard" I-IV progression various embellishment figures for the IV chord are more likely to use a perfect fourth instead of the augmented (lydian) fourth.

[scg]

 

Given that major and minor are themselves just modes (as mentioned), it seems like the most consistent approach would be to offer all modes as options (as suggested), or none, that is, just key signatures by number of sharps/flats (setting aside the Apple Loops stuff). For the 'offer all modes' option, since many people are more familiar with major/minor than the underlying modes, you could list those two as e.g. 'Ionian (Major)' and 'Aeolian (Minor)'.

But, I imagine convention and inertia play a big role here, and historically there's been much more awareness of major and minor than of the whole mode set. I doubt the developers gave it much thought when they made those the only options. Fine with me if they implement this though, as long as they implement arbitrary track-stack depth first 😁

 

[analogika]

10 hours ago, scg said:

Given that major and minor are themselves just modes (as mentioned), it seems like the most consistent approach would be to offer all modes as options (as suggested), or none, that is, just key signatures by number of sharps/flats (setting aside the Apple Loops stuff). 

For regular notation, it is completely irrelevant. 

For Nashville notation (chord notation based on the degrees of the scale), which Logic offers, there is really only major tonic (I) or minor tonic (Im). 

Unless Logic writes out the actual modes in the notation (for which there is no convention that I know of), basing the degrees on anything other than the minor tonic or major tonic is useless. 

And for all other cases, as mentioned, it is utterly irrelevant. 

[scg]

4 hours ago, analogika said:

For regular notation, it is completely irrelevant.

Quote

And for all other cases, as mentioned, it is utterly irrelevant. 

Agreed, more or less (again, setting aside the possible Apple Loops issue). Just speaking for myself, I don't think I've used Logic's key signature feature even once, ever. I was just commenting out of academic interest 🙂

[ManFromNapa]

The conversation around Nashville notation is interesting, but not why I inquired about this.  That being said, how great would it be if Logic could produce Nashville Notation?

Frankly, I'm surprised this thread is still alive.  It's all a great conversation though.

I know Logic can't do anything with the specific key/mode, but what if it could and/or a plugin could?  What the AI instrument knew the difference between A minor and E Phrygian and could make better harmonic or melodic decisions?

Again, the greater community here is shooting this down and I get it.  This wasn't a "burning desire" request.  I asked in part because I'm a bit nit-picky about things like that, and I was curious about the AI related implications.

[David Nahmani]

Just now, ManFromNapa said:

Again, the greater community here is shooting this down and I get it.  This wasn't a "burning desire" request.  I asked in part because I'm a bit nit-picky about things like that, and I was curious about the AI related implications.

I think it would totally make sense then, to have that capability to use various modes and even create your own custom modes. But Logic is just not ready for that kind of capability yet. Even that distinction between minor and major is mostly visual, as a major MIDI region, Pattern region or Apple Loop will only get transposed to the root key (an A Major loop will play in A Major if your project key is A minor). 

[analogika]

32 minutes ago, ManFromNapa said:

The conversation around Nashville notation is interesting, but not why I inquired about this.  That being said, how great would it be if Logic could produce Nashville Notation?

Er, it does! You can enter regular chords and have them displayed as absolute chords or Nashville in the notation editor. 

I use it all the time for sheets and virtually everything I transcribe/arrange for my students. 

 

 

32 minutes ago, ManFromNapa said:

 

I know Logic can't do anything with the specific key/mode, but what if it could and/or a plugin could?  What the AI instrument knew the difference between A minor and E Phrygian and could make better harmonic or melodic decisions?

Again, the greater community here is shooting this down and I get it.  This wasn't a "burning desire" request.  I asked in part because I'm a bit nit-picky about things like that, and I was curious about the AI related implications.

Ah! Now that makes sense to me! 

Is there an "AI" instrument that does something like this for major/minor now?

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by analogika

[ManFromNapa]

On 3/28/2023 at 9:17 AM, analogika said:

Er, it does! You can enter regular chords and have them displayed as absolute chords or Nashville in the notation editor. 

I use it all the time for sheets and virtually everything I transcribe/arrange for my students. 

Ah! Now that makes sense to me! 

Is there an "AI" instrument that does something like this for major/minor now?

Is there a video on how to do Nashville Notation on Logic?  Is it in David's book (which I bought but haven't opened....)

As for the AI tool... not that I know of unless one of the Pitch Correction / AutoTune type apps does it.  

I use Suggestor to help save me time with midi chord building.  It allows you to pick the specific mode you are using and it got me thinking on the "wouldn't it be cool" line of thought.  

[David Nahmani]

Just now, ManFromNapa said:

Is it in David's book (which I bought but haven't opened....)

No, I do not cover that subject in my book. 😉 

[ManFromNapa]

7 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

No, I do not cover that subject in my book. 😉 

I feel cheated.....  HA HA HA

[analogika]

21 hours ago, ManFromNapa said:

Is there a video on how to do Nashville Notation on Logic?  Is it in David's book (which I bought but haven't opened....)

If you know how to add chords to a score, you can just add chords as usual. 

In the Score view, pull up the "Layout" menu, "Chords and Grids…", and set Language to "Nashville Roman" or "Nashville Arabic". All chords will be displayed in Nashville notation, relative to the tonic designated in the Key signature.

You can still enter them as absolute chords (e.g. "Abm"), but they will display as numerals.

[Fallen Leaf]

On 2/13/2023 at 6:35 PM, ManFromNapa said:

I’d love to see more options for Key Signature than Major & Minor.  Dorian, Phrygian, etc…. If nothing more than to just correctly communicate with any collaborators.

same, I know nothing about notation & I work purely off ear & such, I like to produce Goa trance, the stuff from the 90's which is all done in Phrygian. 
I could not tell you is E Phrygian is anything similar to say f# ionian or any other scale. 

I do know that:- Major: W-W-H-W-W-W-H - Natural Minor: W-H-W-W-H-W-W - Harmonic Minor: W-H-W-W-H-A-H - Melodic Minor: W-H-W-W-W-W-H & Phrygian:H–W–W–W–H–W–W
Use those patterns as a template. & this I can apply to what im drawing in.
being able to set this globally would be a god send so I don't have to reset up each region manually every time as it differs from the projects key.. while only being 3 clicks its still a pain that I have to do that every time.
Even if it is just for the midi this would be amazing & can't be to hard if the piano roll can be set to this independently.