"Overlap Midi Recordings" Blues in 10.7.x

[DanRad]

I've been here before with this "Feature" and it drives me fricken' crazy.  I had come to terms with it through LPX 10.3.x

I hope someone takes pity on my and has a solution....

The Goal: For Midi recording to act like the Audio recording in that, when I punch in, it wipes to old data and replaces it with new data REGARDLESS if there is new data entered.  AND, if I go into a preroll "Count in" record mode, it wipes previous data after the downbeat REGARDLESS if there is new data entered.  Much like an analog tape recorder and pretty much how audio data is handled.

I see in 10.7.4 they've removed the simple "Replace" option.  This is what seemed to do what I want it to do. (See below for settings)

Now there is a "Replace" menu, none of the items do what I would like them to do for the following reasons.

Region Erase: The GOOD: Wipes Data with preroll (1 measure count in) recording as earlier versions.  Doesn't merge new data with old data.  The BAD When punching in, it wipes all data in the punched in measure EVEN IF I PUNCHED IN HALF WAY THROUGH IT. (Who thought this was a good idea?) The data can be recovered, but it's an added step. If it preserved old data in the measure before the punch, this would be the solution to my many problems.

Region Punch:  The GOOD: It punches in and out as expected. It doesn't Merge new and old data. The BAD It only wipes data if there is incoming data.  It doesn't wipe existing data when used in preroll (count in)recording. Often I want to go in AFTER the down beat..if there is something there, it is left intact...not what I want.

Content Erase: GOOD: Wipes old data. BAD:Merges any new content creating ONE REGION whether I want that or not (and I don't. I want new data to create new regions that I can manipulate separately) and under VERY BAD: Doesn't play back data of rerolled measure before recording. (Who thought THIS was a good idea?)

Content Punch: I'm not seeing any difference between this setting and Content Erase other than it DOES playback data during preroll count in. BUT it has the fatal flaw IMHO of merging new with old data making it (for me) unusable.

This is about the best setting I've found... but it has the issues mentioned above;

 

This setting worked as desired with 10.3.3

I hope someone has some suggestions that will help me get my workflow back to where it was in older versions.

 

[polanoid]

3 hours ago, DanRad said:

Region Erase: The GOOD: Wipes Data with preroll (1 measure count in) recording as earlier versions.  Doesn't merge new data with old data.  The BAD When punching in, it wipes all data in the punched in measure EVEN IF I PUNCHED IN HALF WAY THROUGH IT. (Who thought this was a good idea?

I don't see this here!? Here's what I get when I punch in in the middle of a bar (the selected region is the one recorded in Replace mode):

[polanoid]

3 hours ago, DanRad said:

The BAD It only wipes data if there is incoming data

That's how it is supposed to work.

[polanoid]

4 hours ago, DanRad said:

VERY BAD: Doesn't play back data of rerolled measure before recording.

Indeed it doesn't. That looks like a bug to me. I think you should report it to Apple.

[polanoid]

4 hours ago, DanRad said:

Content Punch: I'm not seeing any difference between this setting and Content Erase other than it DOES playback data during preroll count in. BUT it has the fatal flaw IMHO of merging new with old data making it (for me) unusable.

That "fatal flaw" is exactly how the "Content" modes are supposed to work. Instead of Erasing the part of the region you are replace-recording over, they erases the content of the region. Might not be suiting your needs, but still it works as advertised.

[polanoid]

4 hours ago, DanRad said:

The Goal: For Midi recording to act like the Audio recording in that, when I punch in, it wipes to old data and replaces it with new data REGARDLESS if there is new data entered.  AND, if I go into a preroll "Count in" record mode, it wipes previous data after the downbeat REGARDLESS if there is new data entered.  Much like an analog tape recorder and pretty much how audio data is handled.

 

That's exactly how "Region Erase" mode works here. Can you maybe share a video showing how it does not work for you?

[DanRad]

Thank you Paranoid for your help in this regard.  I realize that people work in many different ways.  Possibly my years recording/producing in the 20th century, where the idea of "where you punch is where you record and you go over previous recorded material" is too ingrained...that said, Logic USED to work that way (Logic 2.5-10.3 Yes, I started on 2.5 in 1996) and it was a seamless procedure to record MIDI with a count in or punch on the fly without having to create more tracks or fix the aftermath... and "Command Z" was always a safety net.

Here is an example of the behavior in I'm seeing "Region Erase."  I'm not getting the result you got..

Here is the region BEFORE punching in:

Then I punch in at the MIDDLE of the measure.  You can see in this picture that the data previous to the punch has been eliminated, forming a NEW region from the downbeat of the measure... though that was not my intent. (Hypothetically I wanted to keep the notes in the first two beats of that measure.)

I could not duplicate the example you provided using Region erase.  Any time I punch in DURING a measure in Region erase, it wipes everything in that measure previous to the punch as seen above. 

Region Punch works without wiping data in the punched measure prior to hitting record, but, unlike the old days of Logic and Analog, it leaves data in place even if I don't take it out of record.  Once I stop, it the area I wanted to "Record Over" (possibly leaving silence) returns.  This is probably the best setting for me and a quick work around is to tap the sustain pedal at the beginning and end of the punch, thereby tricking Logic into wiping data the whole time I'm in record, Ala Tape.

Maybe I'm missing some other preference.  I've played long and hard with the variables, but that doesn't mean I haven't missed something.

Any suggestions to achieve simple "Punch In/Punch Out" with out merging data or eliminating data prior to the punch is welcome (and I'll happily be as wrong as can be...:) 

Lastly, in older versions, when using a count in or just recording on a track, the regions subsequent to the "in point" for recording were highlighted, letting you know that you would be wiping that data.  In "Content Erase" (the only one that "wipes" in record mode w/o incoming data) there is no warning that you'll be wiping data after your count in.

ARG!  Any help is greatly appreciated. This really messes with my workflow.

Thanks

Dan Rad

[polanoid]

11 hours ago, DanRad said:

Then I punch in at the MIDDLE of the measure.  You can see in this picture that the data previous to the punch has been eliminated, forming a NEW region from the downbeat of the measure...

This is not what is happening here, so I‘m afraid I can’t help you with this. Maybe someone else on this forum has got an idea? I might be able to help if you post an example song, and add detailed steps how to reproduce what you are seeing 

Edited February 25 by polanoid

[DanRad]

Thank you again for your help and your time. I would love to get some other input on this situation. AND  There is another variable that affects most if not all the Midi Record settings and that is the "Replace" button "x" (see below).  In the old days, there was only 2 choices in this regard.  Hit the "x" replace button, or not.  If you didn't have that selected, the new recording just piled on top of the old.  With the "x" selected, it behaved much like an analog tape recorder (equipped with a time machine to correct or edit your bad punches..meaning "Command Z".)

So... when you were in record or punched in, the in and out points were exactly where you expected them to be and when you were recording on a track, it wiped previous data. Simple and very similar to what engineers had been using for decades.  

I have discovered that if the "x" button is selected, the behavior of ALL the other variables changes.  Since I want to "overwrite" existing data when I record or punch in, I use the "x" button constantly (as I had in the past) 

Below is an image where I have punched in on about beat 3 of a 4/4 measure.  You can see, both in the main page and in the score page that Beats 1 and 2 have been erased.  Note that the "x" button has been selected.

Can someone enlighten me to the relationship between all these modes which, when the "x" button is selected, change their behavior.  

And possibly, is there a way to have the recording and punch in behave as it used to in previous Logic versions (all the way back to 2.5) where, when you hit record... it records and overwrites existing data.  Sorry to be such a PITA, but this is such a groove killer for me.

Thanks 

Dan Rad

[polanoid]

14 minutes ago, DanRad said:

There is another variable that affects most if not all the Midi Record settings and that is the "Replace" button "x" (see below).

How is that "another variable"? This whole thread has been about Replace mode (all the Region/Content Erase/Punch modes only apply to Replace mode)?

Edited February 25 by polanoid

[polanoid]

14 minutes ago, DanRad said:

 In the old days, there was only 2 choices in this regard.  Hit the "x" replace button, or not.  If you didn't have that selected, the new recording just piled on top of the old.

That's not true. There were different options when Replace mode was not active. AFAIR you could choose to merge newly recorded data with existing regions, or create a new track for each new overlapping recording.

[polanoid]

24 minutes ago, DanRad said:

Below is an image where I have punched in on about beat 3 of a 4/4 measure.  You can see, both in the main page and in the score page that Beats 1 and 2 have been erased.  

I just noted why this didn't happen when I tried in my first reply: I only played MIDI notes a bit later in the replace recording. Indeed I do now see what you describe when I already play notes inside the measure in which I did the punch-in. Seems like Logic then extends the to-be-deleted area to the next bar start to the left. That definitely looks like incorrect behaviour to me. I suggest reporting it to Apple.

[DanRad]

1 minute ago, polanoid said:

I just noted why this didn't happen when I tried in my first reply: I only played MIDI notes a bit later in the replace recording. Indeed I do now see what you describe when I already play notes inside the measure in which I did the punch-in. Seems like Logic then extends the to-be-deleted area to the next bar start to the left. That definitely looks like incorrect behaviour to me. I suggest reporting it to Apple.

At least I'm not crazy...  Anyone have ideas with current situation... especially old timers like myself who have used analog and Pre LPX versions?  What are your overlap recording settings?

[polanoid]

5 minutes ago, DanRad said:

Anyone have ideas with current situation... especially old timers like myself who have used analog and Pre LPX versions?

I'm pretty sure you already have understood the situation exactly right, so the only suggestion is reporting this problem to Apple. I can not think of any workaround for this.

BTW I can reproduce the issue to at least 10.6.3 10.4.4, so it's not a new problem at all.

Seems like not many people actually use Replace mode, can't remember anyone mentioning this on the forum. Another reason to report the issue, maybe Apple aren't even aware of it.

Edited February 25 by polanoid

[polanoid]

On 2/24/2023 at 6:56 PM, DanRad said:

I see in 10.7.4 they've removed the simple "Replace" option.

I've analyzed this a bit further. The four "new" Replace options (Region/Content Erase/Punch) have been introduced exactly in 10.4.0 (not in 10.7.4). 10.3.3 is the last version that behaves like you request it, which is the "Erase Region" mode, but without the (unnecessary, in my and your opinion) rounding to the next bar to the left from the start of inputting MIDI data). Seems like the "Erase Region" mode was implemented incorrectly right from the start (I assume it was intended to be the replacement of the - only - old Replace mode). I'd say you did have your chance to report this, 10.4.0 was released five years ago...

Edited February 25 by polanoid

[DanRad]

Yes. I have been resisting 10.5+ for this very reason.  But time marches on. I'll probably find a workaround and eventually get used to it... kind of like my bald head!  (Workaround= Hats)