Danny Wyatt Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 (edited) I never used VCAs, even though I believe I understand the concept. Pretty much it seems that what it does is equal to when we select a bunch of channel strips and move the volume fader on one of them and it changes the volume on all of them, the same for Mute and Solo. The only difference here is that the volume faders actually change their position whereas with a VCA it doesn't (similar to when we route the output of all channel to a Bus and we change the volume of the Aux's volume fader - and before someone mentions that the VCA does not get any signal, unlike the Bus/Aux, I'm aware of that. I'm just using the Bus/Aux as an example for the faders behavior) So technically the VCA is just a fast way of controlling the volume/mute/solo of a bunch of tracks, right? It seems to me that a VCA is similar to having a group set to Volume, Mute, Solo, with these 3 differences: 1 - When using a group, we need to disable the group in order to make individual changes to the each channel strip, then enable it back again 2 - When using a group, if we make changes to the volume faders, the faders actually change their position whereas with the VCA they don't. 3 - When using a group, there's the extra Inspector tab which on small screen such as mine (13") it's precious space that's being taken Am I missing anything else here? Any other real advantage of using VCAs? Edited March 4 by Danny Wyatt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 - A Volume Group would also affect Volume Automation (which you may or may not want) - Once you exceed the upper or lower limits with one or more Volume faders in a group, their relative differences are lost (even if you drag the faders back so that all of them are in their range again, they may be slightly off). This won't happen with a VCA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 59 minutes ago, Danny Wyatt said: it seems that what it does is equal to when we select a bunch of channel strips and move the volume fader on one of them and it changes the volume on all of them, the same for Mute and Solo. Think of them as yet another multiplication the signal goes through before it goes to the channel strip's output. So it's signal * (volume fader value) * (0 or 1, depending on mute/solo state of channel strip) * (VCA fader value) * (0 or 1, depending on VCA mute or solo state) -> output Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Wyatt Posted March 4 Author Share Posted March 4 (edited) 25 minutes ago, polanoid said: - A Volume Group would also affect Volume Automation (which you may or may not want) For my particular workflow, this wouldn't be an issue, because I never create volume automation. I always use the Gain plugin. 25 minutes ago, polanoid said: Once you exceed the upper or lower limits with one or more Volume faders in a group, their relative differences are lost (even if you drag the faders back so that all of them are in their range again, they may be slightly off). This won't happen with a VCA I can see how this could be an issue for some people. In my particular case, I got used to having all my volume faders at 0dB and then having a Gain plugin that increases/decreases the output. I move the volume faders when I want to quickly test things, but once I'm happy with how it sounds, I just add or update the Gain. But yeah, for some people this would be an issue, eventually, if there's a big relative difference between tracks. 18 minutes ago, polanoid said: Think of them as yet another multiplication the signal goes through before it goes to the channel strip's output. So it's signal * (volume fader value) * (0 or 1, depending on mute/solo state of channel strip) * (VCA fader value) * (0 or 1, depending on VCA mute or solo state) -> output I actually tend to do the opposite, lowering all the outputs (via the Gain plugin), so having extra signal wouldn't be useful for my workflow. Thanks for the feedback! 🙂 Edited March 4 by Danny Wyatt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 1 minute ago, Danny Wyatt said: I actually tend to do the opposite, lowering all the outputs (via the Gain plugin) That's not the opposite. All values less than 0dB are multiplications with factors less than 1.0, which does mean lowering the output Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Danny Wyatt said: I got used to having all my volume faders at 0dB and then having a Gain plugin that increases/decreases the output Careful with those though! If they are not at the end of the insert chain, they will affect the signal level that is fed to the FX plug-ins following them. And if they are, they will always be before the sends, so you will not have the possibility to use pre fader sends if you use the Gain as Volume fader. Also, the Gain knob isn't even a fader 😉 Edited March 4 by polanoid 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Wyatt Posted March 4 Author Share Posted March 4 3 minutes ago, polanoid said: That's not the opposite. All values less than 0dB are multiplications with factors less than 1.0, which does mean lowering the output Sorry, when you said "multiplications" I automatically thought of "volume increase", hence my reply. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Wyatt Posted March 4 Author Share Posted March 4 Just now, polanoid said: Careful with those though! If they are not at the end of the insert chain, they will affect the signal level that is fed to the FX plug-ins following them. And if they are, they will always be before the sends, so you will not have the possibility to use pre fader sends if you use the Gain as Volume fader. Yeah they are always the last plugin. And to be honest, I rarely use pre-fader sends, so that's never an issue. But sure, when I use them, then the workflow is different, but I probably used pre fader sends 10 times in my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 Just now, Danny Wyatt said: Yeah they are always the last plugin. And to be honest, I rarely use pre-fader sends, so that's never an issue. But sure, when I use them, then the workflow is different, but I probably used pre fader sends 10 times in my life. Also displaying the "fader" value of all your gain plug-ins at the same time in a meaningful way will not be easy. That's one of the big advantages of faders... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 Not trying to talk you out of using the Gain plug-in of course! Whatever floats your boat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Wyatt Posted March 4 Author Share Posted March 4 (edited) 8 minutes ago, polanoid said: Also displaying the "fader" value of all your gain plug-ins at the same time in a meaningful way will not be easy. That's one of the big advantages of faders... At least for my workflow, having that visible isn't that valuable to me. Actually, the way I work now is more intuitive and more accurate. For example, if the meter shows my signal peaking at -3dB and my fader is at 0dB, I know for a fact that what's going out is -3dB in terms of where the peak is when it comes to the source. If I use a fader and I set it to -9dB and the meter shows -3dB, sure, the output is -3dB as well, but the source (before the fader) is not actually at -3dB, it's at 6dB, right? So in that case, using the Gain, I have a real sense of what the whole chain is outputting before the fader. Maybe this isn't relevant at all, maybe it's just a psychological thing on my end, but it seems to work. I think it's just the habit at this point. Edited March 4 by Danny Wyatt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 2 minutes ago, Danny Wyatt said: but the source (before the fader) is not actually at -3dB, it's at 6dB, right? Which is not a problem at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Wyatt Posted March 4 Author Share Posted March 4 7 minutes ago, polanoid said: Not trying to talk you out of using the Gain plug-in of course! Whatever floats your boat... No worries. Just exchanging some ideas 🙂 To add to my other post, let's say I want to add a compressor after all my plugins, I can easily keep that gain plugin knowing the peak is at -3dB, where as if I'm using the fader, even if it shows the peak at -3dB, what's going into the compressor is not -3dB, but 6dB. Sure, we can use the Input inside the compressor to compensate, but it's just an example. The same would be true for a distortion plugin, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Wyatt Posted March 4 Author Share Posted March 4 2 minutes ago, polanoid said: Which is not a problem at all. It depends on what's happening after that. If I'm sending it to an aux and the aux starts with a distortion plugin, that changes everything. Yeah, we can use a gain plugin before the distortion, but then again, why not using it before it even goes to the aux? For my workflow, my goal is to always make the source as close as possible to "final" before moving on to the next "level". As I said, maybe this is something only on my end, but it just "feels" right to me now when I look at the mixer, I have a balanced mix and all my faders are at 0. It's almost like someone sending you a track to mix, you import all audio and it sounds balanced without moving any faders. That's how I feel, pretty much. Is it psychological? Probably. Does it work for my workflow and does it make it feel more "polished"? Definitely 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 21 minutes ago, Danny Wyatt said: It depends on what's happening after that. If I'm sending it to an aux and the aux starts with a distortion plugin, that changes everything. Yeah, we can use a gain plugin before the distortion, but then again, why not using it before it even goes to the aux? If it's a post fader send, the level that is shown in the channel strip's level meter is what will be sent to the aux (multiplied by the send level of course) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 27 minutes ago, Danny Wyatt said: I can easily keep that gain plugin knowing the peak is at -3dB How do you even know without at least adding another level metering plug-in directly before it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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