Edit Tempo Curve in Latch mode

[Alti]

I have been looking for an answer to this question for a very long time.  Maybe someone here? 

I want to animate tempo changes in projects, and I want to record the tempo changes in real time, ideally using a volume pedal or other controller.  I know how to set up a slider in the software that will change the tempo, but the changes made during a session are not recorded.  It's as if the temp parameter is on "Read", and I need it to be on "Latch".

Can this be done?  And if it can, is it possible to set up an external controller, such as a footpedal or anything else, as an interface?

Thank you in advance!

-A

 

[Atlas007]

Have you tried with the Tempo fader in the Environment?

IIRW the Allow tempo change recording setting needs to be enabled as well…

Edited March 12 by Atlas007

[polanoid]

30 minutes ago, Alti said:

I have been looking for an answer to this question for a very long time.  Maybe someone here? 

I want to animate tempo changes in projects, and I want to record the tempo changes in real time, ideally using a volume pedal or other controller.  I know how to set up a slider in the software that will change the tempo, but the changes made during a session are not recorded.  It's as if the temp parameter is on "Read", and I need it to be on "Latch".

Can this be done?  And if it can, is it possible to set up an external controller, such as a footpedal or anything else, as an interface?

Thank you in advance!

-A

As you already know that you need to use the Tempo Fader in the MIDI Environment for that, here's what you need to do beyond just creating it:

1) Make sure it's cabled somewhere between the Physical input and the Sequencer input

2) Make it assignable (i.e. check this box  in its properties in the Environment)

3) Assign it to a track in the tracks area

4) Record the fader changes on that track

This will record the "Tempo Control" meta events into a MIDI region which will be played back by the fader, thereby changing the tempo during playback just like you recorded it.

Edited March 12 by polanoid

[polanoid]

Additional info: I just noticed that, if you assign any MIDI controller (e.g. your Mod Wheel) as Input of the tempo fader, the tempo changes will be recorded directly into Logic's tempo track, even if you skip steps 2 & 3). So, even easier 😉(BTW "Allow tempo change recording" was off when I tried this)

[Alti]

Wow.  Spectacular!  My mind is blown.  I'll try your solution tomorrow when I get into the studio... for now, thank you!  This has literally. been something I have been trying to figure out for an embarrassingly long time.

The instruction re:cabling, which I'd read before, baffled me, as there are no physical cables involved, except if I added an external controller... so cabling between the physical input and the sequencer is something that would have to be done in the box somewhere, wouldn't it?  I mean, the instruments are virtual and of course, the sequencer is Logic, and the instruments are running in Logic, so cabling?

Thanks, again, Polanoid!

[Atlas007]

Indeed step 2 and 3 are superfluous.

And "Allow tempo change recording" setting is actually preventing same to work, which is odd...

[David Nahmani]

13 hours ago, Alti said:

The instruction re:cabling, which I'd read before, baffled me, as there are no physical cables involved, except if I added an external controller... so cabling between the physical input and the sequencer is something that would have to be done in the box somewhere, wouldn't it?  I mean, the instruments are virtual and of course, the sequencer is Logic, and the instruments are running in Logic, so cabling?

Yes it's virtual cabling that you do in the MIDI Environment:

1. Command-0 to open the MIDI Environment,
2. click the Layer pop-up menu at the top left,
3. choose Click & Ports,
4. Chooser New > Fader > Special > Tempo Control,
5. Cable it in between the physical input and sequencer input objects for example: 
   
6. Select the Tempo object and assign its Input for example to the Pitch Bend wheel:
   

[Alti]

So, I've done exactly what you recommended, David and Polanoid - And have gotten the external controller to move the fader, and the fader changes the tempo on the project, but it will not record the changes, as if it were in latch mode.  I have tried it with "record tempo changes" on and off, and the tempo changes do not record regardless.  Any further thoughts?

[David Nahmani]

Forget about "Latch", that's for recording automation, but tempo changes are not part of what's called automation. 

Create an external MIDI track and press Record, then move your controller. When you press Stop, you'll see the tempo changes recorded on the Global tempo track. 

 

[Alti]

Thank you!  I did not think of that.  Will try again tomorrow. 

RE "latch", I was only using the term to describe/illustrate the function I was wanting of it - the same editing method, but I guess I did think that tempo might be a part of conventionally automation.  Thanks, again.

[David Nahmani]

You're welcome! I just wanted to make sure you weren't trying to set automation to Latch and expecting that to record your tempo changes. 🙂 

[polanoid]

10 hours ago, Alti said:

So, I've done exactly what you recommended, David and Polanoid - And have gotten the external controller to move the fader, and the fader changes the tempo on the project, but it will not record the changes, as if it were in latch mode.  I have tried it with "record tempo changes" on and off, and the tempo changes do not record regardless.  Any further thoughts?

I've just tried again, using the attached project, and it works fine. The tempo control fader is controlled by CC#1, so just changing the mod wheel value on the musical typing keyboard (keys 3-8) will change the tempo, and those tempo changes will directly be recorded into the tempo track. Note that if you move the fader using the mouse, those tempo changes will not be recorded though!

rec tempo chg.logicx.zip

Edited March 14 by polanoid

[Alti]

Thanks, Polanoid.  I think that between you and David Nahmani I've got it solved, and will try to verify later this AM or afternoon.  The problem, now that I think about it, is obvious.  I was able to get the fader to move using an external controller, and the fader movement did change the temp.  Problem remained that Logic was not recording the changes.

But I was thinking of the operation as an animation, while it really is a midi track recording, and I had not provided a midi track for it to record on.  I think that will solve it, and will update asap.

Meanwhile, thank you both for your excellent assistance and support!  I have had the need to set this up for years, but no one I asked seem to have an answer.  I guess I was asking the wrong people.

[David Nahmani]

1 minute ago, Alti said:

But I was thinking of the operation as an animation, while it really is a midi track recording, and I had not provided a midi track for it to record on.  I think that will solve it, and will update asap.

Yes, that's it, however keep in mind that the tempo changes are not recorded on that MIDI track: once you press stop, they appear in the global tempo track and nothing remains on the MIDI track. 

[polanoid]

2 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

Yes, that's it, however keep in mind that the tempo changes are not recorded on that MIDI track: once you press stop, they appear in the global tempo track and nothing remains on the MIDI track. 

Actually they are recorded on the MIDI track here so I always have to delete the resulting MIDI region afterwards. Strange.

Edited March 14 by polanoid

[David Nahmani]

1 minute ago, polanoid said:

Actually they are recorded on the MIDI track here so I always have to delete the resulting MIDI region afterwards. Strange.

Weird! Here they appear to create a MIDI region on the track but when I press Stop, that region disappears and only the tempo changes in the global track remain. 

[Alti]

So, I am getting the same as Polanoid, I think.  I set things up as discussed, then recorded tempo changes on a midi track.  During recording, the tempo changes do occur as one would hope,  but there is no evidence of that, either on the midi track or on the tempo curve.   Nothing except the tempo itself changes while recording.

However, as soon as I stop recording, the tempo changes I had input do appear on the tempo curve, replacing what was there in the area that was re-recorded only, like punching in and out.  It now really is a complete solution to the problem.

Polanoid, David, and Atlas - Thank you so much.  And David, I have seen your face from time to time on this forum or that, but have never communicated with you.  I cannot imagine the number of people you've assisted over the years - hell, you might represent the greatest single enhancement to Logic productivity in its history.   Thanks, man.

[David Nahmani]

4 minutes ago, Alti said:

And David, I have seen your face from time to time on this forum or that, but have never communicated with you.  I cannot imagine the number of people you've assisted over the years - hell, you might represent the greatest single enhancement to Logic productivity in its history.   Thanks, man.

Thanks a lot for your kind words, Alti, I appreciate it! 🙂 

[Alti]

One more thing.  I found that immediately after recording a tempo curve, nothing appears in the midi track.  That said, when I opened a project yesterday that had been saved the day before, it does appear that there is midi notation present on the track.  I have not checked it or evaluated any of it further. 

I'm kind of afraid to touch it, as it's working, the whole thing is (due to my ignorance, no doubt) a little mysterious, and I don't want to break it!

[Atlas007]

7 hours ago, Alti said:

I'm kind of afraid to touch it, as it's working, the whole thing is (due to my ignorance, no doubt) a little mysterious, and I don't want to break it!

Working (experimenting) on a project backup should prevent damages that might happen…

Edited March 16 by Atlas007

[Alti]

You are right.  Backing up is one thing I have learned about the hard way.  But this system is set up to backs up two different places, one practically real-time,so I guess I don't have to worry.  Besides, I made new templates that incorporated the whole temp mod setup so I'm in good shape I guess... thanks for reminding of that!  Any stress or worry reduction in this world is a very good thing.

[Atlas007]

Preventive measures (such as backups) are a good mean to ease the stress level indeed.

[David Nahmani]

18 hours ago, Alti said:

I have not checked it or evaluated any of it further. 

Feel free to share the project here so that we can have a look!

[Alti]

Update - So we have the system working to adjust tempo, and the changes are recorded in a midi track.  All's well with that.

Now, I am trying to use a Lehle USB midi expression pedal to do the controlling.  Simply plugging this pedal into a USB port does produce midi, which shows up on the project.  But I cannot get the pedal to move the slider or change tempo.  Going back to the setup in the environment, I set up the slider to the expression wheel on my MPK249.  That works.  But I cannot find a way to do the same thing with the pedal.  I.e, there is no option to select the pedal in the environment.

It does show up in the "physical input" box in the clicks and ports layer of the environment, but that box is a jumbled up mess and difficult to read.  Attached is an image of the clicks and ports setup.

How do I get the pedal to control the slider instead of the expression wheel controlling the slider?

As always, thank you!

A

[David Nahmani]

1 minute ago, Alti said:

there is no option to select the pedal in the environment.

Click the Tempo object to select it and you can program the desired MIDI input in the inspector. On my earlier comment, you can see that I have mine set to Pitch Bend events. Set yours to whatever type of MIDI event your controller is sending.  

[Alti]

I feel dense.  The object is assigned to pitch bend.  And the object works, and the pitch bend wheel on the MPK249 controls it.  There is no choice of selecting tempo instead of pitch bend.

I just want to replace the MPK pitch bend wheel with the pedal.

 

Edited March 19 by Alti

[David Nahmani]

1 minute ago, Alti said:

There is no choice of selecting tempo instead of pitch bend.

Tempo? I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean Expression, then that's MIDI CC#1. Volume is CC#7. To know what your pedal is sending your can click the little arrow at the left in the LCD display in Logic and choose "Custom" which will show a MIDI in display. Now move the pedal and see what CC# it is sending. There's a symbol, then the MIDI Channel (most likely 1) and then the CC# and then the value depending on the pedal position. 

[Alti]

LOL, you're not sure what I mean and I'm not sure what you mean.  In the midi activity display it shows
a slider symbol then 1 11 then midi #.

David, I should have restated the problem.  All I am trying to do is get the pedal to control tempo, just as the pitch bend wheel on the MPK does. The pedal outputs Midi just fine, and changes made with the pedal do show up in the Midi window in the LCD.  But that midi input, from the pedal, does not change the tempo.

Edited March 19 by Alti

[David Nahmani]

1 hour ago, Alti said:

it shows
a slider symbol then 1 11 then midi #.

That's Control #11 on MIDI Channel 1. Set up your Tempo object like this: 

[Alti]

David-  Thank you.  I've got it working 100%.  There were a few things I needed to do and learn in the environment, including what you just pointed out - I figured that out last, just as you were writing, I think.  I'll tell you, the midi environment is deeper into Logic than I've ever been, and it's an amazing discovery... a sh*t ton of interesting things can be done in there.  Always very grateful for you and everyone's help and patience.