Modifcation date issue on Logic Audio files

[Dynamic_Notes]

Hello,
Not sure what you'd call this, but I'd sure appreciate a work-around. I don't know if its OS related or Logic, or both, so I've put it here. @David Nahmani, perhaps you can shift it if it fits better somewhere else?

Ive noticed large groups of audio files in some of my song projects have EXACTLY the same date and timestamp for the modification date attribute. I just can't think why this would be. My understanding is these should only update when they're edited, for example, in destructive editing. It doesn't seem to have affected all projects. This is a serious issue because my workflow often involves going back and forth between projects and I like to do manual backups. I totally rely on the mod date being accurate (as do, apparently, many software backup utilities)

Im trying to drill down and figure out whats doing it but so far Im at a loss.

Has anyone had this issue, or can shed any light on what the expected behaviour should be?  I know this would be a real longshot, but is there a way to retrieve those modification dates/timestamps?

Thanks
 

[David Nahmani]

When this happens, do you do a File > Save or Save As in a different location? 

20 hours ago, Dynamic_Notes said:

my workflow often involves going back and forth between projects and I like to do manual backups.

This leads me to guess that maybe when you do a manual backup, you're making copies of all the audio files, which would explain why they all have the same modified date. Do they have the same creation date also? 

[wonshu]

Unfortunately this also happens when Logic analyses files due to flex or some other reason that I haven't figured out yet. But mostly flex.

It changes the modification dates.

It's highly annoying and confusing.

[David Nahmani]

10 minutes ago, wonshu said:

It changes the modification dates.

Yes, that makes sense because it has to add tempo and transient marker metadata to the audio file. 

[Dynamic_Notes]

Thankyou for your responses guys.

@David Nahmani

The files I'm talking about are what I call source files. (sorry I should've said that) They're the first ones to be made, the working copies if you will and its the audio files here I can come back to edit further. ie, sometimes I take a break from a project and go back to it.

To clarify,  I save my all song files as "Save As".  All Audio and Song Files and anything else necessary are contained in the one Project Folder. This whole Folder is initally dragged into my backup drive, and as things are added on the source drive they are dragged into that backup folder. Always done it this way. From what I can find on this, dragging/copying audio files in this process should not invoke a modification update. Nor should simply viewing the file or changing its name. Playing it in the finder shouldn't either.

On the Source drive, specifically Audio files, The Date Created and Date Modified are the same and stay that way unless I edit the file. The same has held true for my backups. Now, if I edit files on source AFTER I backup, then that modification date becomes crucial so I can keep my backups right.

 All this said, it doesn't explain why in some Projects Audio Folder, numerous, as in almost all, dates timestamps have changed to exactly the same, when there's no way I edited all those files at once and I haven't used flex very much at all for the reasons said below to wonshu.

Recently as a test, when I was editing (modified) a couple of files I kept a close eye after each edit in the finder, and saw unique modification updates happen. Then I checked again after closing Logic and those modifications remained unique. I did this to rule out that Logic  might only update those modifications when I either Save As, or close the project. Sometimes I can do many edits on files before saving or closing out and I thought this could be a possible explanation.

When I do backups I dont edit them, they're just copies. My method is not to replace everything, but only what has been changed. I need reliable modification dates to effectively do that.

@wonshu

Yes, flex editing (in my experience it seems to be only pitch) is destructive. I found that out the hard way.  It will lock a file and you can no longer edit it in the Audio Editor, which is why deep in Logic Manual its recommended to bip first. However, Ive found  that if I drag the said file into Logic again from the finder it is strangely editable again.

 

[wonshu]

As a side note, my way of working:

Whenever I get a delivery from a studio with orchestral recordings that cost us several 10s of thousands of dollars I will "freeze" these in time by taking the whole delivery and creating a read-only disk image .dmg from those. That way I know I can always go back to the untouched originals in case we or the OS overlord screwed something up.

[David Nahmani]

1 hour ago, Dynamic_Notes said:

Yes, flex editing (in my experience it seems to be only pitch) is destructive. I found that out the hard way.

Flex is nondestructive. That means that Flex edits don't affect the audio signal in the original audio file. They only affect the playback of the audio file in a specific Logic project. 

1 hour ago, Dynamic_Notes said:

It will lock a file and you can no longer edit it in the Audio Editor, which is why deep in Logic Manual its recommended to bip first. However, Ive found  that if I drag the said file into Logic again from the finder it is strangely editable again.

That's normal behavior. 

When you turn on Flex editing for an audio file in a project, Logic loads a copy of the audio data in RAM and now plays back that copy. The original audio data on the audio file on your drive remains intact. 

When you try to perform destructive editing with the Audio File editor, you try to perform destructive editing of the audio file on the hard disk, which is not what you're playing back in the project. That would be dangerous, so Logic locks the destructive editing functions in that project. 

When you use that same audio file in a different project that does not have Flex editing on for that audio file, then you're playing back the original data on the drive, so in that case you're free to perform destructive editing with the Audio File editor. 

[Dynamic_Notes]

@David Nahmani Thankyou for that explanation and correction.

I was ready to post - tried to upload an image and it took the whole browsing section out and next thing Im back at the desktop.

Was going to post a screenshot of an example where ALL the audio files in a Song have modification dates changed to exactly the same time stamp as the last saved song version, which happened this month. This included internal and external synths, which I almost never edit once printed.

@wonshu if you can ever shed any more light on this I'd sure be grateful. Annoying for sure and confusing? According to an article from eclecticlight website it is.

https://eclecticlight.co/2020/03/27/what-changes-a-files-modification-date-and-what-doesnt/

Well worth the read but unfortunately doesn't say exactly what triggers a modification update. Its not new, or unique to Mac OS. I remember on my Windows box, seeing Date Created, updating and Date Modified staying the same.

He also mentions interesting stuff for those who use Time Machine for backups.

[David Nahmani]

10 hours ago, Dynamic_Notes said:

I was ready to post - tried to upload an image and it took the whole browsing section out and next thing Im back at the desktop.

This is an issue that is related to your browser. I've sent you further information by private message. 

[Dynamic_Notes]

In this example all the modification dates are the same as the last saved song file. The second entry is the Audio Folder line. I checked another project today which has 39 audio files, and all but 3 have the same date and timestamps. In this case there were 3 or 4 later song files.

 

[Sir Hannes]

Same problem here. I do manual backups for Audio Files and for the project files. I do not trust sync-apps due to personal reasons. Every now and then I do an additional "Make Copy In" within Logic (may sound different, got the German version here).

I recently had this problems where all files got suddenly the same new time stamp. And I did not work with Flex on all of them, that's why I would call that a bug. 

Now I have to select all audio files in that folder and drag&drop it over to iCloud and tell the dialogue not to overwrite it (for all). Then - at least - I have the same amount files in both folders.

Not professional at all, I have to admit 😞

Edited March 31 by Sir Hannes

[wonshu]

BTW: I just dragged some audio files into a ProTools session  and that too changed ALL the modification dates. Douchebags.

[Dynamic_Notes]

If backup software relies on this modification date attribute to do incremental backups, then I wonder how many peoples backups are potentially screwed up. The thing is, it seems to be intermittent and inconsistent.

@wonshu so that means its more an OS problem, and not Logic alone. What OS are you on? 

@Sir Hannes I just can't bring myself to trust those apps either.

BTW I do 2 backups and Im having to rethink how I operate because of this issue.

[wonshu]

I'm on Monterey, 12.6.4

Edited March 31 by wonshu

[wonshu]

I'm on Monterey 12.6.4 (latest I think...)

Regarding sync and backup - I've had good experiences with Syncthing, but I run it as a one way upload sync to my backup server.

I do trust Carbon Copy Cloner very much, whenever I "lost" something ( I didn't really, but I had to get stuff back manually) it was because of user error. 

Oh... double post - sorry - somehow the browser showed it as not answered... 😕

Edited April 1 by wonshu

[Dynamic_Notes]

CCC is a great and highly respected piece of software. There's no doubt about that. I used to use it many years ago. I cloned Leopard from an external to internal drive (before I knew how to install an OS properly) and used it for many years after that. Im not sure if the incremental backups were date modified based or how much it relied on that or if there were other options.

For my use, Ive trusted doing manual backups myself, and has been fine up until this pesky issue raised its ugly head.

Would be easy if we all just had pristine backups to make but they're often a work in progress. Read only, excellent strategy for your expensive files though.