How much RAM on new M2 Max chip Macbook Pro?

[Simac73]

Hi,

Having got tired of the Logic Pro "System Overload" pop up ("The audio engine was unable to process all required data in time. You can try increasing the I/O buffer size, or changing the Multithreading option in Logic Pro > Settings > Audio > Devices") ...

... I am now upgrading to the latest Macbook Pro with M2 Max.  I always tend to 'future-proof' my Macs with the highest spec and this used to work well (my last 2 iMacs are almost 10 years old and only now starting to struggle, and my last Macbook Pro is 2018 (2.9 GHz 6-Core Intel Core i9 with 32gb RAM) and similiarly, starting to struggle with Logic on larger projects.

But noting that the new Macs are so superior to the older chips, I am wondering how much difference it will make upgrading the RAM from the standard 32gb to 64gb or even 96gb, or is it not worth it for use solely with Logic Pro?  The Apple site says "M2 Pro and M2 Max include superfast unified memory, which is more efficient than traditional RAM. The single pool of high-performance memory allows apps to quickly share data between the CPU, GPU and Neural Engine. This means you can do more with unified memory than you could with the same amount of traditional RAM."  On the face of it, this may not necessarily make much/any difference when just using the one app (Logic).

In other words, I guess what I am really asking is - is 32gb RAM on the new M2 Max chip going to be massively more than enough for Logic with practically any project no matter how many plugins etc, or is there still some sense in upgrading to 64 or even 96gb ram?  Even if it won't make much difference now, I guess there may still be some sense in future-proofing the machine, but it seems to me that my old approach with this may be becoming outdated, as with so many exponential improvements being made in so many areas (eg. type of ram, type and number of processors/cores etc) machines seem to become obsolete more quickly nowadays.  Hence my 2018 Macbook Pro (which I tried to future proof with 32gb ram and the best processor in the range at that time at quite a cost - about £3,500 from memory (no pun)) is now struggling to run larger projects in Logic after 5 years, as opposed to 10 years with my previous machines.

I don't *think* I'm missing any tricks in terms of streamlining the projects; I set my threads to max, large buffer etc, opt to 'freeze' all software instrument tracks, remove all unecessary plugins, delete all unused audio, consolidate project etc etc. and still it keeps overloading.

So in summary does anyone have any thoughts or advice on whether and to what extent it is wortrh upgrading the standard 32gb RAM on the M2 Max chip machines please?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Cheers, Simon

 

Edited September 12 by Simac73
add further explanation to clarify point

[des99]

33 minutes ago, Simac73 said:

In other words, I guess what I am really asking is - is 32gb RAM on the new M2 Max chip going to be massively more than enough for Logic with practically any project no matter how many plugins etc, or is there still some sense in upgrading to 64 or even 96gb ram?

How much RAM are you using for your existing projects on your current 32GB MBP?

The answer to that will tell you whether 32GB will be enough, or whether you should budget for more.

Remember that RAM is not the thing that processes plugins, that's the CPU. Having more RAM does not make your CPU faster and able to process more plugins. And there are single core limits on all machines.

As far as your current machine is "struggling" to run your projects - is this a CPU issue? (check your performance meters, if your projects are running with all cores maxed out, then yes, you need a faster computer. If it's just one core maxing out, that's a resource management issue). It probably a CPU thing, so to get an idea of the measurable performance increase on your computer, check the Geekbench CPU scores (both single-core, and multi-core) or your current computer, and the one you intend to buy.

If for example, the multi-core score of the new machine is 3x the old one, you'll generally be able to run 3x as many plugins (or, your existing projects that were maxing out your old machine, will require 33% the power of the new machine to run).

None of this absolves you of good resource management of course - computers can only do so much in realtime, and if you abuse the power of any computer, it's possible to make it try to do more than it can process in realtime, and your projects won't be able to be played back.

33 minutes ago, Simac73 said:

I don't *think* I'm missing any tricks in terms of streamlining the projects; I set my threads to max, large buffer etc, opt to 'freeze' all software instrument tracks, remove all unecessary plugins, delete all unused audio, consolidate project etc etc. and still it keeps overloading.

How many tracks is a typical project for you? And what sample rate?

(Also, on Apple silicon, you don't need to run with large audio buffers, it's great... Also, no fan noise - also great.)

Edited September 12 by des99

[Simac73]

Hi Des,

Thanks so much for your massively helpful advice, and sorry for the slightly late reply.

 To answer your points - 

How much RAM are you using for your existing projects on your current 32GB MBP?

I've attached a few screenshots.

One project showed "memory used 23gb / cached files almost 10gb" and another showed almost 24gb / 10gb respectively (a lot me thinks??)

(though for what it's worth I note that Apple say "M2 Pro and M2 Max include superfast unified memory, which is more efficient than traditional RAM" and something to the effect that you can do more with unified RAM than traditional etc. so I wasn't sure if it was OK to make a straight comparison?)

As for CPU usage, the Logic meter (attached) shows all 12 processing threads generally between 50-75%, but in some sections nearing the 100% mark.  The "Drive I/O" meter is very low, barely registering.

I'm not 100% what you mean by "all cores maxed out" - do you mean threads?... sorry if I'm misunderstanding.  I've also attached another pic showing the Activity Monitor's CPU load and in that shot (just before another overload crash) you will see the CPU % is saying "791" (which I don't understand) and the CPU section down the bottom is showing over 70% (it then jumped to the 80s and crashed).

I checked Geekbench and it shows my current machine scores as: 1363 Single-Core Score / 4922 Multi-Core Score (6 cores and 12 threads).

This is  the M2 Max machine I'm looking at - https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/16-inch-space-grey-apple-m2-max-with-12-core-cpu-and-38-core-gpu-1tb#

It's hard to identify precisely on Geekbench without knowing the MHz, but all the M2 Max Macbook Pros with 12 cores appear to have single-core scores of between 2000-2800 and multi-core scores of around 14,000.

Finally you ask "How many tracks is a typical project for you? And what sample rate?"

Well to be honest the tracks I'm producing right now are pretty large, I have quite a lot of audio tracks (including live drum tracks with flex time, multiple live strings tracks (cello and violin), and various guitars and vocals) together with various software instruments and many plug-ins.  In the track I'm on right now I have roughly 70 audio tracks and 15 instrument tracks = 85 total tracks.  Sample rate is 44.1 khz.

I'm sure that I have a lot to learn in terms of the good resource management you mention, but bearing in mind the general benefits of the newer machines (including as you say no large audio buggers or fan noise) and in general making life easier for working in Logic, unless you think I could make a substantial difference with resource management such that I wouldn't really need to worry about overloads for the forseeable future, I think i'll just get one of the M2s.

But the big question for me is, do you think I should max out on the 96GB ram??

Thanks very much for your help Des, it's greatly appreciated as I'm really out of my field with this stuff!

Cheers

Simon

PS. it wouldn't let me upload all 4 screenshots together, I'll try upload the other 2 separately in a second..

 

[Simac73]

other 2 pics now attached hopefully! 

[Simac73]

another dilemma is - if I totally max out the new Macbook Pro (Apple M2 Max with 12‑core CPU, 38‑core GPU and 16‑core Neural Engine, 96GB unified memory and 8TB SSD storage) it comes to £6,750.

For "only" £1,250 more you can get a super powerful Mac Studio with the following spec (ok I would have to buy the peripherals but still)....

 

Apple M2 Ultra with 24‑core CPU, 60‑core GPU, 32‑core Neural Engine, 192GB unified memory, 8TB SSD storage = £8,000

Ideally I want a laptop (Macbook) but it's hard not to want to switch to the super powerful studio M2 ultra if I'm prepared to max out the Macbook, as it's not that much more relatively speaking!

 

 

[des99]

50 minutes ago, Simac73 said:

One project showed "memory used 23gb / cached files almost 10gb" and another showed almost 24gb / 10gb respectively (a lot me thinks??)

You see how in the Memory tab, second screenshot, the small green line low down - that shows you are barely using the available RAM you have. When your memory resource starts getting highly used, it will be larger and turn yellow, and then when it's severe, it will turn red. The memory pressure is the best indication under load of your memory use (as under the hood, it's... complicated).

It looks like you're maybe ~12GB for your Logic project.

So you don't have a memory issue, and nor do you need to get even more, if this project is a typical large project for you.

50 minutes ago, Simac73 said:

(though for what it's worth I note that Apple say "M2 Pro and M2 Max include superfast unified memory, which is more efficient than traditional RAM" and something to the effect that you can do more with unified RAM than traditional etc. so I wasn't sure if it was OK to make a straight comparison?)

32GB of memory, is 32GB of memory, regardless of the CPU. Of course, Apple silicon has some speed, architectural and efficiency benefits - which is good! 🙂

50 minutes ago, Simac73 said:

As for CPU usage, the Logic meter (attached) shows all 12 processing threads generally between 50-75%, but in some sections nearing the 100% mark.  The "Drive I/O" meter is very low, barely registering.

Yes, you are maxing out your CPU. You either need a faster computer, or you need to manage your resources better to reduce CPU load.

50 minutes ago, Simac73 said:

checked Geekbench and it shows my current machine scores as: 1363 Single-Core Score / 4922 Multi-Core Score (6 cores and 12 threads).

This is  the M2 Max machine I'm looking at - https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/16-inch-space-grey-apple-m2-max-with-12-core-cpu-and-38-core-gpu-1tb#

It's hard to identify precisely on Geekbench without knowing the MHz, but all the M2 Max Macbook Pros with 12 cores appear to have single-core scores of between 2000-2800 and multi-core scores of around 14,000.

So the new computer is nearly three times as powerful, in CPU terms, as your current machine, which matches up to the previous hypothetical example I gave.

50 minutes ago, Simac73 said:

I'm sure that I have a lot to learn in terms of the good resource management you mention, but bearing in mind the general benefits of the newer machines (including as you say no large audio buggers or fan noise) and in general making life easier for working in Logic, unless you think I could make a substantial difference with resource management such that I wouldn't really need to worry about overloads for the forseeable future, I think i'll just get one of the M2s.

Agreed. I think you'll love it. 👍

50 minutes ago, Simac73 said:

But the big question for me is, do you think I should max out on the 96GB ram??

Not on the evidence you've shown, no. CPU is your current problem, not RAM.

17 minutes ago, Simac73 said:

Ideally I want a laptop (Macbook) but it's hard not to want to switch to the super powerful studio M2 ultra if I'm prepared to max out the Macbook, as it's not that much more relatively speaking!

I mean, if you have the money, fill your boots. I'm not convinced you *need* a fully maxed out MBP though, so the price difference may be different.

Honestly, it looks like you'd be fine with 32GB of RAM. If you want to really future proof, you could go to 64GB and *really* be at ease to not have to worry about it, but then if half the RAM is empty all the time because you're just not using it, it seems a lot of money if you're not going to be using it.

Anyway, this exercise of examining your computer usage should have given you a better idea of what you need, what you'd like, and what you can afford. Juggle accordingly! 🙂

Hope that helps...

Edited September 13 by des99

[Simac73]

Thanks a million Des, that's hugely helpful!  This has helped me make my decision - I'll go for the MBP with either 32/64gb RAM.  Cheers. 😁

[analogika]

10 hours ago, Simac73 said:

Thanks a million Des, that's hugely helpful!  This has helped me make my decision - I'll go for the MBP with either 32/64gb RAM.  Cheers. 😁

Based on what your screenshots show, 32 GB is more than enough. Note that the M2 Max offers no benefit at all for your usage — except for the availability of more RAM. 

So if you decide to go with 32GB, the 12-core M2 Pro is probably the way to go (presuming that heavy video work is not in your future). 

(Do NOT opt for the 10-core M2 Pro, as that has two fewer performance cores.) 

[Simac73]

Thank you @analogika ! That's a very good point which could well save me about a grand!  I'm now just torn between 32gb and 64gb RAM - I note your point that 32gb is more than enough for my usage now, but would it be sensible to get the 64gb RAM for future proofing purposes?.... I mean hopefully the machine will be strong for at least 5 years and you know how things change in terms of requirements - what do you think?... still M2 Pro or is the M2 Max perhaps worth it for the future-proofing RAM option?...

[David Nahmani]

9 hours ago, Simac73 said:

 I'm now just torn between 32gb and 64gb RAM - I note your point that 32gb is more than enough for my usage now, but would it be sensible to get the 64gb RAM for future proofing purposes?

A chain is only as good as its weakest link, so once you've determined what you need today, I would beware of future proofing by bumping only one of the elements (in your case, the RAM).

Project yourself 5 years from now: Logic Pro has now integrated new functionality that requires more resources, the newer macOS requires more resources, your new projects may require more resources, you may own newer plug-ins that require new resources. And you own a machine that has enough RAM because you took care of future proofing that, however you're dealing with a 5 year old machine with a 5 year old design, a 5 year old CPU, memory bandwidth up to 5 year old standards, a 5 year old display, etc...

On the other hand, if you can save $400 today by getting only the 32GB you need today, you're getting a machine that makes sense for your needs today, and because of the $ saved you may be able to update to a newer machine a bit earlier in the future, say 5 years from now rather than 6 years. 

[analogika]

It’s more than $400, because to get 64 GB you also need to upgrade to the M2 Max — which he wouldn’t meet otherwise. 

[David Nahmani]

2 minutes ago, analogika said:

It’s more than $400, because to get 64 GB you also need to upgrade to the M2 Max — which he wouldn’t meet otherwise. 

Good call. So... more like $600 then apparently. 

[Simac73]

Thanks both.

Yes I see what you mean David, so I guess my answer really is don't try to future proof for too long (like i used to) as things move too fast; get something that suits my needs for the short-term forseeable future (3-5 years maybe?) and be prepared to to update more regularly.  It all equals out in the end I guess, I just need to update my machines more often than every 8-10 years!

[analogika]

If you don’t need to, you don’t need to. 😉

[David Nahmani]

3 hours ago, Simac73 said:

don't try to future proof for too long (like i used to) as things move too fast;

Yes, that's the gist of my thinking, especially when you can future proof only one of the items in your computer. For example I would definitely recommend an Apple Silicon machine over an Intel machine even if the Intel machine is fine for your needs today. That's because the Apple Silicon machine is better in all aspects, not only one like the RAM. 

[Simac73]

On 9/14/2023 at 12:51 PM, David Nahmani said:

Yes, that's the gist of my thinking, especially when you can future proof only one of the items in your computer. For example I would definitely recommend an Apple Silicon machine over an Intel machine even if the Intel machine is fine for your needs today. That's because the Apple Silicon machine is better in all aspects, not only one like the RAM. 

Thanks David, very helpful as always. Cheers Simon

On 9/14/2023 at 11:45 AM, analogika said:

If you don’t need to, you don’t need to. 😉

True!  Thanks Analogika

[tbuechse]

RAM usage...

Being future proof is a relative concept,  IMHO. The Apple Studio has some nice specs and they are not too pricey compared to a larger RAM equipped MacBook. Another thought is the use of a desktop PC which hosts the sample libraries being slaved to a Logic via Vienna Ensemble instances.

My personal approach is the writing on a fairly slim 512/16GB M1 MacBook, arranging later with the help of external sample libs for the more detailed orchestra sounds, IF necessary at all (freezing, instrument groups audio mixdowns etc.) My directive#1 was mobility, which led to the decision not to buy a high spec Mac Studio (to be future proof).

Apple Studio 64GB will bring you pretty far, though,  as the GB amount is not comparable to the traditional use of RAM and will give you some head room, but I am more into the hybrid Macbook/PC RAM Monster solution, besides I like working and maintainig skills on both platforms...

James Zhan´s Videos show some detailed aspects on which machine to use for certain Audio Tasks

 

It comes down to your personal habits also, on how you would like to produce. Take your time for decisions here

Edited September 15 by tbuechse

[analogika]

26 minutes ago, tbuechse said:

RAM usage...

[…]

Apple Studio 64GB will bring you pretty far, though,  as the GB amount is not comparable to the traditional use of RAM

Yes it is. 

64 GB, for the large part, is 64 GB. We initially thought that Apple Silicon was doing things radically different — but it turned out that it was just really, really fast at paging out to disk. 

50 GB of sample libraries loaded into RAM is still going to take 50 GB of RAM, regardless of whether they're on Intel or on Apple Silicon. 

[tbuechse]

Sorry to hear, as they dwell on that. What about the PC Slave route anyways?

 

[des99]

9 minutes ago, analogika said:

Yes it is. 

Well if someone else wasn't going to say it, I certainly was! ☺️

I've written quite a bit about how the media angle really confused the messaging on this way beyond the original intent. Memory on Apple silicon is not magic, 8GB of RAM is still 8GB of RAM and can hold the same 8GB worth of data.

Edited September 15 by des99

[MikeRobinson]

The "Activity Monitor" utility, "Memory" tab, can also give you a clue as to how much memory the operating system thinks that your process is using. You can also right-click the menu bar to add other columns such as "Real Memory."

One "hidden" impact on system performance is the fact that MacOS, like all modern operating systems, uses "virtual memory." This means that the process appears to have perhaps more "memory" available to it than is actually available on the computer. The operating system observes the process's instantaneous memory reference patterns and does not actually keep "all" of its "memory" in physical storage. When necessary, a "page" is "swapped in" from external storage, and from time to time memory data is also "swapped out." (The running process does not perceive this.) Unfortunately, this utility doesn't seem to offer a count of the number of "swaps per second," as other versions of the same utility do (in other operating systems).

Personally, and even though I haven't kept up-to-date with the latest magic offered by Apple's hardware designers, I have consistently found that "more RAM" is usually a good thing. But only up to a point.

[MikeRobinson]

To the above point:

"50 GB of sample libraries loaded into RAM is still going to take 50 GB of RAM, regardless of whether they're on Intel or on Apple Silicon."

Because of "virtual memory," those "50GB in RAM" could be squeezed out of physical RAM and pushed to an external hard drive if contention for physical RAM among all of the various now-running processes immediately called for it. (Even though the virtual RAM figure remains unchanged.) The operating system will endeavor to notice which pieces of the data are actively being used, and keep those available while allowing other data to be "swapped out." But it will only begin to do this when "actual 'memory pressure'" begins to manifest itself. If there is no such "pressure," the operating system will be "lazy" and allow the as-yet-unreferenced data to remain.

The argument for "more RAM" basically boils down to the position of that "pressure point."

The impact of "virtual memory swapping" is actually interesting. At first, it is "merely linear." But then, it abruptly becomes "exponential." A computer-science phenomenon known as "thrashing." Which basically means, "hitting the wall (and going 'splat')." Wikipedia it ...

Edited September 16 by MikeRobinson

[analogika]

A well-programmed OS will always try to use all the RAM it can to speed up the system, even if it doesn't strictly "need" to. 

If it needs more RAM than is physically available, it will first page out the inactive contents to disk, next it begins to compress the active contents of the RAM, and THEN it will begin to page out active content to virtual memory on the SSD. 

RAM usage becomes an issue when the memory pressure rises to the point where the system needs to start compressing and paging. 

 

On the OP's machine, his system is barely managing to fill 23 GB of RAM, despite running Logic, Kontakt, Word, a web browser, DropBox, and all the CleanMyMacX background processes. 
That's with the Mac trying to use as much RAM as it can. 
 

I have no idea when the 32 GB RAM ceiling will start to become an issue, but he's nowhere near that yet.