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Logic 10.7.9 renaming channel strips/MIDI tracks relation problem


Simon R.

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Hi.

I have a problem where my channel strips on a software instrument will rename, when I rename a certain multi-timbral MIDI track belonging to that channel strip. I don't think this used to be the behaviour in versions of Logic I used before! I have always been able to rename my channel strips so they made sense (e.g. "CS Strings high longs", instead of it automatically being renamed to a track (right now it is MIDI channel 12 track who should be "CS violas trills" e.g.).

So.. whenever I rename that MIDI ch 12 track, it renames the channel strip and vice versa.

I tried turning off "automatic renaming of channel strips" in Project>Audio settings - no luck!

Anyone who knows how to fix this or has this changed (in a bad way) recently in Logic?? And why is the channel strip (seemingly) taking name from a random MIDI track (channel 12 in this case)??? On another channel strip it is MIDI ch 7 that seems to follow the channel strip and vice versa?!?

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There has always been some weird behavior in this regard.  Not to say it might have gotten weirder with 10.7.9 hard to say.

logicpro has numerous weirdness related to multi instrument handling.

you can get around some of that weirdness by using raw midi tracks connected to environment multi instrument objects. 

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Thanks guys. I am re-working on the exact same template/project where I used to be able to rename the channel strips without affecting track names, so something has changed since 10.7.1 or whatever version I used for that project. I really hope there is some way to do this as it'll be a pretty big PITA to have channel strips named after random tracks in a multitimbral instrument setting!

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the thing to keep in mind that long ago LogicPro didn't have the nice GUI that apple added later.  the original concept of Logic under Emagic was to cable together channel strips in the environment and that was your mixer.  The actual channel strip objects each have reference to internal instrument objects, an instrument object can host an actual instrument plugin.  If you had a multi-timbral instrument, then you would create these kind of secondary channel strips, which all reference the same underlying instrument object...so that you might have say 7 of those pointing to the one multi-timbral instrument object, but only would set maybe the midi channel on each one.  Etc etc.  

sounds complicated ?  yea it was, so anyway Apple made the cool GUI we see on LogicProX an LogicPro, which is really just a thin wrapper around that underlying environment, which is still there.  They just made it so that with an easier GUI you can just say "add track' and under the covers LogicPro will cable together the right set of environment objects and they are still there you can go look at them and tweak them around, etc..but its a loose coupling between the GUI and the underlying thing...and it basically because of that there are odd situations that don't quite translate right for now the gui presents it, and/or there can be automatic behavior in there that is trying to keep the thin GUI in sync with the underlying environment setup.  And its got some bugs and or design problems that make that translation less then perfect.  that has always been the case.  I wrote about this years ago a strange bug when you had multi-instruments, the labeling of the last channel used would always show the label of the first channel used and strange stuff like that.  Maybe there is now a new problem maybe not, but its never been perfect and a lot of it is due to this loose coupling between the underlying environment structure and the GUI itself.

In my opinion these kinds of problems will not go away until the environment does.

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Actually if I now load up an old project, Logic now renames the channel strips as the project is loaded! So it overrules the names I had set for the channel strips and now derives them from one of the MIDI tracks in the Arrange! Crazy. Definitely something has changed.

 

Anyone knows how/where to find earlier Logic versions so I could find out when this was screwed up??

 

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26 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

age you having this problem specifically when you try to open projects that you created with an earlier version of Logic Pro?

Nope. Happens with new projects as well.

Create a multi timbral instrument with 16 MIDI tracks.

The corresponding channel strip will now always take its name after MIDI channel 16 and vice versa. Useless.

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30 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

do all 16 tracks have the problem or only the last one?

Well, as a starting point when you create a new multi, the problem will be MIDI Ch 16. I am not at the computer now to test, but I believe that if you delete track 16, the channel strip will now just take its name after track 15 instead.

For a moment I thought maybe I could "fool the system" by creating a copy of the 16th track and then hide the one that gives the channel strips its name. But as soon as I hide that track, the channel strip will then take the name from the non-hidden copy of the track haha - so that didn't work as a workaround either.

I really doubt this is intentional. Unfortunately I am not on Sonoma so I can't update to 10.8.1 - do you know if this is the same behaviour in 10.8.1 or if it has been fixed?

 

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2 minutes ago, Simon R. said:

Well, as a starting point when you create a new multi, the problem will be MIDI Ch 16. I am not at the computer now to test, but I believe that if you delete track 16, the channel strip will now just take its name after track 15 instead.

I was having that problem a few years ago also.  I was making a lot of templates for VePro and running it exactly that kind of behavior.  I finally gave up and just decided in some cases the track names are going to be bonkers.  I tried many different things to see if I could fool LogicPro into putting the right names  and leaving them be, but I could never get it to work right.  

it's definitely not intentional, but simply an artifact of a complicated thin gui later on top of underlying environment objects.  I'm not trying to make excuses, just explaining what I think is happening.  I asked Apple to fix this years ago, they never did.  You should try to ask them, maybe they will, but I doubt it.  

2 minutes ago, Simon R. said:

For a moment I thought maybe I could "fool the system" by creating a copy of the 16th track and then hide the one that gives the channel strips its name. But as soon as I hide that track, the channel strip will then take the name from the non-hidden copy of the track haha - so that didn't work as a workaround either.

I really doubt this is intentional. Unfortunately I am not on Sonoma so I can't update to 10.8.1 - do you know if this is the same behaviour in 10.8.1 or if it has been fixed?

I'm also on Monterey until 2025 or later.  So...I can't test the next version, but my guess is that this weirdness won't go away unless the enviornment completely goes away someday.

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I just tried the same thing in Logic 10.4.8 (only other version I have), and here it works as it should. You can rename channel strips independently from MIDI tracks!

So this bug has been introduced fairly recently. I was working in 10.6.x for a long time and don't think it was there either. I think it happened around 10.7 for sure. Just a question which version it happened to.

 

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1 hour ago, Simon R. said:

So this bug has been introduced fairly recently.

Between 10.7.7 and 10.7.9 to be more precise (for whatever reason I didn’t keep a backup of 10.7.8, so I can’t tell if that version has the bug as well).

To check this, create, say, 4 multi-timbral tracks and rename them a, b, c, d while having the Mixer open.

In 10.7.7 the Mixer Channel Strip will still be called “Inst 1”.

In 10.7.9 it will be called “d” as soon as you rename the last track (even though the text entry that pops up says “*Track Name” which should indicate you’re renaming the Track itself, not the Instrument it uses)

Maybe someone can check with 10.7.8.

P.S. I wonder why they are using the Track Name at all in this situation, they could also use the names of the Environment Objects associated with the tracks as they can be renamed independently (only their name will not show up anywhere else, except for the last created track, neither in the track header nor the mixer) as you can check when you open the MIDI Environment and go to the Mixer layer.

Edited by polanoid
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1 hour ago, Simon R. said:

I have never had anything I reported fixed.

Reported bugs are in the thousands. Fixed bugs are in the hundreds. You can see a list of all the bugs they've fixed, many of which were reported using that form, there: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203718

1 hour ago, Simon R. said:

So I am not sure if their official bug form is just a black hole

The form goes straight to the Logic team, they catalog every single bug that is reported, then have a priority system based on things like how critical the bug is, how many users it affects, how easy it is to fix etc... 

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37 minutes ago, polanoid said:

Between 10.7.7 and 10.7.9 to be more precise (for whatever reason I didn’t keep a backup of 10.7.8, so I can’t tell if that version has the bug as well).

To check this, create, say, 4 multi-timbral tracks and rename them a, b, c, d while having the Mixer open.

In 10.7.7 the Mixer Channel Strip will still be called “Inst 1”.

In 10.7.9 it will be called “d” as soon as you rename the last track (even though the text entry that pops up says “*Track Name” which should indicate you’re renaming the Track itself, not the Instrument it uses)

Maybe someone can check with 10.7.8.

P.S. I wonder why they are using the Track Name at all in this situation, they could also use the names of the Environment Objects associated with the tracks as they can be renamed independently (only their name will not show up anywhere else, except for the last created track, neither in the track header nor the mixer) as you can check when you open the MIDI Environment and go to the Mixer layer.

Do you have 10.7.7 lying about?? I would be very interested in getting hold of it if possible 🙂

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39 minutes ago, polanoid said:

BTW 10.8.1 still behaves like 10.7.9 in this regard.

How many did you report? Which ones are still unfixed?

I think the main one that I reported is the "MIDI CC data gets recorded to several different MIDI channels in the same region/same track when in MIDI merge record mode" bug: 

 

I don't think that one was ever fixed. I have hardly used 10.7.9 yet so I am not 100% sure but I will find out soon enough.

Edited by Simon R.
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2 hours ago, Simon R. said:

I don't think that one was ever fixed. I have hardly used 10.7.9 yet so I am not 100% sure but I will find out soon enough.

I cannot even reproduce that one in 10.7.1, so maybe the Logic developers couldn’t either? Tried your steps from your comment I linked to below whilst having Overlapping MIDI Recordings set to Overlap /Merge Selected regions and still everything is recorded to channel 1. 

Was that all you meant by "I have never had anything I reported fixed”?

Edited by polanoid
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3 hours ago, polanoid said:

I cannot even reproduce that one in 10.7.1, so maybe the Logic developers couldn’t either? Tried your steps from your comment I linked to below whilst having Overlapping MIDI Recordings set to Overlap /Merge Selected regions and still everything is recorded to channel 1. 

Was that all you meant by "I have never had anything I reported fixed”?

I didnt report much. I probably reported more stuff waaaaaay back but I don't recall exactly what. I just know that this issue was there for several years (and might still be, haven't checked in 10.7.9 yet) and nothing happened. And I think it's a relatively big thing that you end up with several conflicting CC data sets on different MIDI channels in the same region. If you really want to dive back into this, I will create a new walkthrough to replicate it.

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Here is someone from 90 days ago with a similar issue or maybe the same?

 

Here is a post I made 5 years ago with v10.4.x with some similar perhaps related problems:

 

 

yes I did try to report it to Apple at the time, and I doubt it got fixed.  I have seen some my bug reports get fixed in the past, so don't give up on it, report the bug.  If more people report it, then its more likely to get fixed.

Some problems, like perhaps this one, are difficult to fix and because of the way the enviornment underpins everything with a loose connection between the GUI and the underlying object model of the environment, it makes it tougher to fix...which is what I was trying to explain earlier..doesn't mean it couldn't be fixed, but it would be difficult at best....which means expensive at best...and also means someone has to get into old legacy code and mess around with it, which is always riskier for a software developer to do, opens a can of worms so to speak.  I'm not meaning to make excuses, just trying to be a realist about it.  

but make detailed bug report, post a post here with screen shots and videos or whatever you need to explain in detail with pretty pictures and include a link to that forum post (not the whole thread, just that one post) in your bug report to apple also.  sometimes they will contact you via email and ask you to send them a project with the problem.

 

 

Edited by Dewdman42
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11 hours ago, Simon R. said:

I have never had anything I reported fixed. So I am not sure if their official bug form is just a black hole.... But I will give it a shot.

It does help. I’ve had them get back to me for more info and seen the issue fixed later. 

If you post some steps to do this I’ll try to report it too.

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19 hours ago, polanoid said:

I cannot even reproduce that one in 10.7.1, so maybe the Logic developers couldn’t either? Tried your steps from your comment I linked to below whilst having Overlapping MIDI Recordings set to Overlap /Merge Selected regions and still everything is recorded to channel 1. 

 

It ACTUALLY seems like to be fixed in 10.7.9 (and apparently in 10.7.1 as well as you tried). I can't reproduce either. I tried in 10.4.8 and there the bug is present, but not in 10.7.9! Great! Unfortunately they then re-introduced the renaming bug instead. So pick your poison 🙂 

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