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Have you listened to Suno 3? we are in trouble.


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I've stopped being scared. 

When recording was invented, musicians were scared it would be the end of live music. 

When drum machines were invented, drummers feared for their jobs. 

I have faith in humans. We still want to interact with humans, no matter how many phones, computers, apple watches and TVs you throw at us. At least I know I do.  

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21 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

I've stopped being scared. 

When recording was invented, musicians were scared it would be the end of live music. 

When drum machines were invented, drummers feared for their jobs. 

I have faith in humans. We still want to interact with humans, no matter how many phones, computers, apple watches and TVs you throw at us. At least I know I do.  

I don't see clients looking to cut costs in sync being aligned with that way of thinking but, I hope you're right.

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8 minutes ago, jmob said:

I don't see clients looking to cut costs in sync being aligned with that way of thinking but, I hope you're right.

There will be clients who won't care, and will go use AI, for sure. But there will still be some work for others. Just like some people pay $5 for a logo on fiverr (and may well turn to AI for a free logo), while others pay thousands to have a real graphic designer do custom work for them. 

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40 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

There will be clients who won't care, and will go use AI, for sure. But there will still be some work for others. Just like some people pay $5 for a logo on fiverr (and may well turn to AI for a free logo), while others pay thousands to have a real graphic designer do custom work for them. 

I guess. I see concept artists for movies that are all saying how their business has really gone downhill since mid journey has come into its own. even the bbc is going to start using AI voices. These are not $5 dollar jobs on fiverr. I see commercial composers taking a real hit from this tech. I'm already hearing classical music on suno that is absolutely gorgeous. V3 is a groundbreaking leap.

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Every new significant technology comes with great potential and utility, and downsides and job displacements, from the printing press onwards.

Some people will fear and resent the new technology, others will only look at the potential and the advantages that they can use, and society adapts and moves forwards.

AI is going to be disruptive (see also: printing press, computers, mobile communications, radio, TV, etc...), and we don't know how much yet, but I can say as a helper tool, it's been great for me so far, and for it's downsides, I'm more and more cynical and suspicious of images posted online as more and more of them are AI generated...

Like most new tech - there are upsides and downsides. Same as it ever was...

I'll finish by quoting the deliciously prescient Douglas Adams:

Quote

“I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:

1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.

2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.

3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.”

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12 minutes ago, des99 said:

Every new significant technology comes with great potential and utility, and downsides and job displacements, from the printing press onwards.

Some people will fear and resent the new technology, others will only look at the potential and the advantages that they can use, and society adapts and moves forwards.

AI is going to be disruptive (see also: printing press, computers, mobile communications, radio, TV, etc...), and we don't know how much yet, but I can say as a helper tool, it's been great for me so far, and for it's downsides, I'm more and more cynical and suspicious of images posted online as more and more of them are AI generated...

Like most new tech - there are upsides and downsides. Same as it ever was...

I'll finish by quoting the deliciously prescient Douglas Adams:

Well, I am not talking about helper tools, smart eq ai as a tool in music production etc. I'm talking about very high quality music at the touch of the button. I would listen to Suno v3 for yourself and listen critically. it can and will replace a lot of us. 

I hate to sound like chicken little here but things are about to change in the composer space and it's going to be bad.

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33 minutes ago, enossified said:

I went to create my first song with Suno and got an error message that due to high usage only paid subscribers can currently generate songs. Strike one...

listen to what people are making 

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I agree with jmob.

I subscribed and just “wrote” three different tunes in three different styles. 98% of the people in the world would not be able tell they were AI generated. Maybe 99%.

I haven’t figured out how to link yet, but there are plenty of examples on the site. 

This is truly the end of…something. 

I don’t see why any TV producer would hire a composer when an intern can now do the job. This not hyperbole. It is that good, specially for short form music.

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10 minutes ago, Troy Chapman said:

I agree with jmob.

I subscribed and just “wrote” three different tunes in three different styles. 98% of the people in the world would not be able tell they were AI generated. Maybe 99%.

I haven’t figured out how to link yet, but there are plenty of examples on the site. 

This is truly the end of…something. 

I don’t see why any TV producer would hire a composer when an intern can now do the job. This not hyperbole. It is that good, specially for short form music.

Well, not yet. There is a lot of legal uncertainty with content created by generative AI. it’s all public domain for one. Without publishing, there is no control. You make in Suno, midjourney and others, I can take and use it for whatever I want. Sell coffee, mugs, put out an album of everything you’ve made in Suno and I’m perfectly in my right to do that. 
 

Advertising companies are already putting a band on generative, art, and music in their materials because of the uncertainty of all of this. 
 

Tye nyt’s case against open ai is a landmark case and I believe there is already precedent for the New York Times to win. 

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One idea: AI is trained on the outcomes of historical human activity. If/as human artistic activity lessens, perhaps due to lack of monetary reward for artistic effort, there will be less and less new human artistic output for AI to be trained on, resulting in a homegenised artistic culture. A single meta-drone, bearing within it a distillation of all and every musical note, rhythm, motif, idiom, etc. will emerge perpetually from the VR headsets and mall-speakers of the capitalist utopia. But...
Another idea: historically, more artists have gone along with trends, trying to succeed within familiar tropes, than have striven for distinctiveness or originality, resulting in the homegenised artistic culture that is already prevalent. And...
Another: some of the people you most expect to defend distinctiveness and originality turn out to be beguiled by tech: a rescued Beatles recording is digitally smoothed and auto-tuned into generic muzak; and the flow of superbly produced, derivative pop, rap, rock, EDM, country, etc. continues unabated, resulting in the homegenised artistic culture... etc.
Perhaps AI will just amplify already-present issues driven by human behaviour: shallow aspirations, the desire to be part of something vaguely artistic without making too much effort, impatience, greed, etc?
The following is from: The stupidity of AI, by James Bridle (2023): "The lesson of the current wave of “artificial” “intelligence”, I feel, is that intelligence is a poor thing when it is imagined by corporations. If your view of the world is one in which profit maximisation is the king of virtues [...] then of course your artistic, imaginative, aesthetic and emotional expressions will be woefully impoverished."

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26 minutes ago, UK_Andrew said:

One idea: AI is trained on the outcomes of historical human activity. If/as human artistic activity lessens, perhaps due to lack of monetary reward for artistic effort, there will be less and less new human artistic output for AI to be trained on, resulting in a homegenised artistic culture. A single meta-drone, bearing within it a distillation of all and every musical note, rhythm, motif, idiom, etc. will emerge perpetually from the VR headsets and mall-speakers of the capitalist utopia. But...
Another idea: historically, more artists have gone along with trends, trying to succeed within familiar tropes, than have striven for distinctiveness or originality, resulting in the homegenised artistic culture that is already prevalent. And...
Another: some of the people you most expect to defend distinctiveness and originality turn out to be beguiled by tech: a rescued Beatles recording is digitally smoothed and auto-tuned into generic muzak; and the flow of superbly produced, derivative pop, rap, rock, EDM, country, etc. continues unabated, resulting in the homegenised artistic culture... etc.
Perhaps AI will just amplify already-present issues driven by human behaviour: shallow aspirations, the desire to be part of something vaguely artistic without making too much effort, impatience, greed, etc?
The following is from: The stupidity of AI, by James Bridle (2023): "The lesson of the current wave of “artificial” “intelligence”, I feel, is that intelligence is a poor thing when it is imagined by corporations. If your view of the world is one in which profit maximisation is the king of virtues [...] then of course your artistic, imaginative, aesthetic and emotional expressions will be woefully impoverished."

Your saying a whole lot of things but the end result is still the same, composers being replaced by services like Suno. 

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Forgive me for not reading this whole post before chiming in. 
I do agree with some of it. Although I think we all should be wary of des99Bot…

On a serious note, I would assume if you’ve had a good working relationship with a client/director/producer etc you’ll keep working with that team. That’s been my experience anyway. I realize AI is cheaper and people will go for that. 
(I once got a gig where they asked me to take vocals out of a track for some background music. No big deal until I heard the track and the vocal was ‘audio jungle….audio jungle’ haha I declined the gig)

if a client values you and can keep you in the budget you’ll have a gig. 

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1 hour ago, fisherking said:

we can't stop tech from moving forward, so (i think) the challenge is to adapt, find the things we do that make us valuable, our skillsets, humanness. either way, we adapt or complain; i will endeavor to adapt

I don't know how we adapt to a replacement generator. There will be other generators that will be tuned to any number of specific genres that will sound better than 95% of the people doing it.

Our only real hope is that these companies are held accountable for the data they train on. If that doesn't happen, It's over for a lot of us.

Apps like Final Cut and premier will have music generators built in that understand not only what's going on in picture but also, timed emotion. We just won't be needed. 

Frankly, there won't be a lot of us left working within a couple of years.

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7 minutes ago, jmob said:

Apps like Final Cut and premier will have music generators built in that understand not only what's going on in picture but also, timed emotion. We just won't be needed. 

Just like Logic Pro has a built in drum track generator for songwriters who need a drum track. That doesn't mean that all of a sudden we no longer have drummers. Although granted, we do see less drummers in the recording studios. 

I worked once at the Record Plant in L.A. and that was a while ago, and already back then, walking around the different studios, it struck me how most studios were empty, with only producers working in the control room, a laptop connected to the SSL. Very few live musicians. I asked the chief engineer if they often had live musician sessions and he said yes, just a couple of days ago there was a drummer in the big studio. I asked what he was recording and the engineer told me "a drum sound library". 🤣

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16 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

Just like Logic Pro has a built in drum track generator for songwriters who need a drum track. That doesn't mean that all of a sudden we no longer have drummers. Although granted, we do see less drummers in the recording studios. 

I worked once at the Record Plant in L.A. and that was a while ago, and already back then, walking around the different studios, it struck me how most studios were empty, with only producers working in the control room, a laptop connected to the SSL. Very few live musicians. I asked the chief engineer if they often had live musician sessions and he said yes, just a couple of days ago there was a drummer in the big studio. I asked what he was recording and the engineer told me "a drum sound library". 🤣

Well, from my experience, when they can replace us, they will replace us. I was working on a game where they replaced all of the artists with mid journey and all the voice over actors with ai voices. I have to tell you man, it worked. This wasn't some small indie dev mobile app game either.

All I'm saying, all I've been trying to convey here is that things are about to get massively disrupted for us and if your in the business of writing music, you need to pay attention because it's going to effect us.

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14 minutes ago, jmob said:

I was working on a game where they replaced all of the artists with mid journey and all the voice over actors with ai voices. I have to tell you man, it worked. This wasn't some small indie dev mobile app game either.

Ok that's definitely scary. And yes for sure I agree that some jobs will disappear. 

15 minutes ago, jmob said:

All I'm saying, all I've been trying to convey here is that things are about to get massively disrupted for us and if your in the business of writing music, you need to pay attention because it's going to effect us.

Yes, I'm not saying there won't be a disruption and you're right, there will be. It's just that this isn't the first disruption so hopefully it won't mean the end of the line for all musicians, composers and producers, just some things to adjusts? I don't know, I probably wouldn't have said that if you'd asked me a few months back, but for some reason with all the AI hallucinations and ChatGPT suddenly speaking Spanglish and other looped AI training nonsense, I'm starting to feel hopeful again for the human race. 😄 

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6 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

Ok that's definitely scary. And yes for sure I agree that some jobs will disappear. 

Yes, I'm not saying there won't be a disruption and you're right, there will be. It's just that this isn't the first disruption so hopefully it won't mean the end of the line for all musicians, composers and producers, just some things to adjusts? I don't know, I probably wouldn't have said that if you'd asked me a few months back, but for some reason with all the AI hallucinations and ChatGPT suddenly speaking Spanglish and other looped AI training nonsense, I'm starting to feel hopeful again for the human race. 😄 

I hear you man. Our one hope lies in the litigation that is coming. There is precedence that is on our side. Sampling is not fair use. the courts decided this definitively. if you want to sample someone else's work, you need to get a license and pay. I don't see how this is any different.

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for me, the best plan is always to deal with consequences as they arise, and not panic in advance. panic fixes nothing, it just makes us feel bad.

the courts won't fix this, genies don't go back in bottles. AI is here to stay, and it will be used (and abused), just as it is with all current tech.

is the sky falling? as far as i'm concerned, it's always falling... 🙄...

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5 minutes ago, fisherking said:

the courts won't fix this

Depends on what you mean by "fix" but they could make some important decisions here. After all, Google has decided to pay $60,000,000 to train its AI on Reddit content, so why not have a court decision that requires the consent from training sources to be used for AI training, and then deals like this could be made. 

I have myself added code and amended our terms of services to protect this website against being used for AI training without my consent. https://www.logicprohelp.com/terms-of-service/ (see #11)

Courts definitely need to chime in here, although the issue is complex. 

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just saying that tech is unstoppable. my uncle was a studio musician (1960s-1990s) and watched the musician's union (which you had to be in in those days to work in studios) try to ban synthesizers, then drum machines, then samplers... we all know how that turned out.

AI will be everywhere; that cannot be stopped. but hopefully, on some level, it can be moderated..

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14 minutes ago, fisherking said:

for me, the best plan is always to deal with consequences as they arise, and not panic in advance. panic fixes nothing, it just makes us feel bad.

the courts won't fix this, genies don't go back in bottles. AI is here to stay, and it will be used (and abused), just as it is with all current tech.

is the sky falling? as far as i'm concerned, it's always falling... 🙄...

This is incorrect. The courts already ruled on a similar situation: sampling.

"In the case of Bridgeport Music, Inc. v. Dimension Films [2005], the US federal appeals court established that recording artists must clear every musical sample in their work, even minor, unrecognised “snippets” of music. The court rejected the notion that using unidentifiable musical snippets was legal, making clear the need for artists to obtain licences for any sampled content.

This decision emerged from a case involving the N.W.A. song 100 Miles and Runnin’, which sampled a guitar riff from George Clinton and Funkadelic’s Get Off Your Ass and Jam. The court’s stance underscores the imperative to secure licences and dismisses the idea that such requirements stifle creativity."

it's all right here: https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/opinion-music-sampling-and-copyright-disputes#:~:text=The court rejected the notion,a case involving the N.W.A.

 

1 minute ago, fisherking said:

just saying that tech is unstoppable. my uncle was a studio musician (1960s-1990s) and watched the musician's union (which you had to be in in those days to work in studios) try to ban synthesizers, then drum machines, then samplers... we all know how that turned out.

AI will be everywhere; that cannot be stopped. but hopefully, on some level, it can be moderated..

no one is saying that it's going to stop. If you want to train on someone's content, you must get a license. It's that simple.

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3 minutes ago, jmob said:

This is incorrect. The courts already ruled on a similar situation: sampling.

"In the case of Bridgeport Music, Inc. v. Dimension Films [2005], the US federal appeals court established that recording artists must clear every musical sample in their work, even minor, unrecognised “snippets” of music. The court rejected the notion that using unidentifiable musical snippets was legal, making clear the need for artists to obtain licences for any sampled content.

This decision emerged from a case involving the N.W.A. song 100 Miles and Runnin’, which sampled a guitar riff from George Clinton and Funkadelic’s Get Off Your Ass and Jam. The court’s stance underscores the imperative to secure licences and dismisses the idea that such requirements stifle creativity."

it's all right here: https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/opinion-music-sampling-and-copyright-disputes#:~:text=The court rejected the notion,a case involving the N.W.A.

no one is saying that it's going to stop. If you want to train on someone's content, you must get a license. It's that simple.

am not talking about sampling other people's music, just about the idea that samplers would 'replace musicians'.

there will be legislation; there is always legislation. but again, like all tech, AI will be used and abused. and life will go on...

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1 minute ago, fisherking said:

am not talking about sampling other people's music, just about the idea that samplers would 'replace musicians'.

there will be legislation; there is always legislation. but again, like all tech, AI will be used and abused. and life will go on...

Sure, life will go on but in what fashion will it go on? In my opinion, modern AI is up there with the birth of industry. It didn't go well for millions of people. virtually every ai company out there training on data is an abuser. That needs to change.   

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Well, actually everybody is doing _much_ (and I mean really really really much!) better than before the industrial revolution.

So that argument I do not buy.

Yes, we will see disruption and yes, we will see people loosing their jobs. It's sad, but I agree with @fisherking - this particular technology will not be stopped. The cat's out of the bag as they say...

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, wonshu said:

Well, actually everybody is doing _much_ (and I mean really really really much!) better than before the industrial revolution.

So that argument I do not buy.

Yes, we will see disruption and yes, we will see people loosing their jobs. It's sad, but I agree with @fisherking - this particular technology will not be stopped. The cat's out of the bag as they say...

Again, no one said anything about stopping and it took collective action by the workers to make the changes necessary for these people to have safer work places, dignity in their lives and time to actually live their lives.

*Edit: not to mention fair pay

Edited by jmob
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Agents with financial heft who have up to now been prepared to pay a little for artistic contributions to their cultural enterprises mostly already don't care about the quality of the culture they engender (down to and including the audio-streaming platforms). They have noticed that what many audiences/consumers seem to want from their cultural experience is a constant re-engagement with the familiar. They are focused on creating services that deliver imitative, repetitive film/music/tv/games for that purpose, to consumers who have shown that they are willing to pay for such services.

In this kind of culture, the greed and ego of the entertainments (or AI) CEO is legitimated by the limited expectations of the entertainments consumer; "producers" and "makers" are already a commercial irritant, routinely chewed up in not-so-virtuous cycles of profiteering. What CEO wouldn't want to replace all of them with a single AI service for which their company pays a negotiated fee?

Could these be the reasons why why Spotify (for instance) has fudged around the issue of AI and musical culture, and continues to "experiment" with generic playlists (plenty of discussion of that elsewhere)?

On the other hand:

1. Might it not be more humane, in the long run, if it becomes practically impossible for human beings to dedicate their artistic efforts to the well-being of unaccountable corporations? Entirely produced by AI, the general culture might be artistic sludge, but no actual human being would have to endure the indignity of contributing to it.

2. It's possible to choose an artistic life precisely out of disinterest in the affirmative culture that follows capital. That is, not out of an expectation of being remunerated by corporations (for e.g.), and with full awareness that making artistic works that are not primarily aimed at capitalisation is a contribution to a selective kind of artistic culture.

3. Is this post is a little "overworked" for logicprohelp.com? 😈

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