Target LUFS + Target dB level, I don’t get this?

[Raoulsplace]

I would like to achieve a target db level of -3db and have the LUFS at -12 (just an example)

I am going to explain my workflow and I need to know where in this workflow I need to make adjustments to achieve both.  Let’s say I have a 5 tracks in my project.

My workflow:
1: I add the desired fx plugins and do a volume level-mix so that the track are balanced.
2: I raise or lower the volume of all channel strips so I get -3db on the master output/master bus.

this is where I get confused, how do I get the mix to -12 lufs while preserving the -3db?
Maybe the order in which I work should be ideally changed, if so please guide me.
Are there specific plugins that change the lufs value and preserve the db level?

 

[des99]

21 minutes ago, Raoulsplace said:

how do I get the mix to -12 lufs while preserving the -3db?

If your peak volume is at the correct level, but your overall "loudness" is quiet, that means your mix is too dynamic - ie, the peaks are much louder than the average signal level. To increase the overall loudness, you need to bring up the volume and bring down the peaks, which could be an arrangement, mix, or mastering issue.

In short, to get a "loud" mix, you must mix it that way to achieve it, as just compressing your peaks a lot to obtain the loudness probably won't sound good.

[Raoulsplace]

17 minutes ago, des99 said:

If your peak volume is at the correct level, but your overall "loudness" is quiet, that means your mix is too dynamic - ie, the peaks are much louder than the average signal level. To increase the overall loudness, you need to bring up the volume and bring down the peaks, which could be an arrangement, mix, or mastering issue.

In short, to get a "loud" mix, you must mix it that way to achieve it, as just compressing your peaks a lot to obtain the loudness probably won't sound good.

What techniques can I to bring up the volume and to bring down the peaks?

[des99]

Your faders, automation, compression, limiting, saturation, or changing up the sounds and arrangement, editing MIDI data - there are lots of ways to change the make up of your mix. And the more you do, the better you'll get at achieving the mixes you want.

[David MacNeill]

I think all you need is a good mastering maximizer in the penultimate slot of your stereo out bus, like the Weiss MM-1. Put a meter on the last slot and raise the level of the Weiss until you hit your target LUFS.

[AXXENTS]

You need a limiter to raise the overall loudness to your preferred LUFS target, which normally results in peaks above 0dBFS. A Limiter cuts off everything above 0 though, so you'll get a "safe peak" at -0.0dBFS (also look up True Peak (TP), because these could still be over 0. My practical advice though: don't worry too much about TP)

Important: you can't just push your mix bus into the limiter as much as you want. The better the mix/peak control before, the more you could theoretically push everything into the limiter and get louder LUFS targets. Pushing too hard and you destroy the sound of your project and at some point the LUFS value won't get much higher. LUFS is also dependent on how much of the frequency spectrum is filled. "Fletcher Munson curve" also plays a role in here, so in my opinion it really comes down to your mix first and to understand all those basics, to correctly work with such technical values.

Now back to the topic: in most limiters you can set the desired output level back to -3dB to get a peak of -3dB. This also lowers your LUFS again, so you would need to reach around -9LUFS with the limiter before the output level setting which should result in -12LUFS.

Also keep in mind there are different LUFS values, like short/integrated. You probably want -12LUFS integrated, but keep in mind that the dynamic of the whole project from start to end also goes into the integrated value (which means short-term LUFS could be around -12 during your loudest part for example, but the integrated value will be lower, as I don't think your whole track always has the same elements and loudness throughout. that would be uncommon.)

My question would be though why you want to hit these specific targets in the first place.

My advice: don't worry about specific peak targets as long as you don't clip the stereo/master out in the end of your chain and get the project as loud as your mix allows it in the mastering stage. Sometimes you may find, that you have to go back and fix something in the mix.

Peak/TP of 0dB is totally fine in most cases. LUFS as much as it allows. I don't master for streaming LUFS targets (e.g -14 LUFS / -1dB TP). Analyzing big releases you'll see they don't do either.

Hope that helps you on your way regarding these topics.

Edited April 15 by AXXENTS
typing correction

[fisherking]

i was careful about levels when i started uploading music to streaming services in 2020.

now i just trust my ears, and i  get everything to about -0.01db (peak), and it pays off when i play back my work alongside others on spotify (where i live), or apple music (where, for some reason, my GF lives).

[Raoulsplace]

12 minutes ago, AXXENTS said:

You need a limiter to raise the overall loudness to your preferred LUFS target, which normally results in peaks above 0dBFS. A Limiter cuts off everything above 0 though, so you'll get a "safe peak" at -0.0dBFS (also look up True Peak (TP), because these could still be over 0. My practical advice though: don't worry too much about TP)

Important: you can't just push your mix bus into the limiter as much as you want. The better the mix/peak control before, the more you could theoretically push everything into the limiter and get louder LUFS targets. Pushing too hard and you destroy the sound of your project and at some point the LUFS value won't get much higher. LUFS is also dependent on how much of the frequency spectrum is filled. "Fletcher Munson curve" also plays a role in here, so in my opinion it really comes down to your mix first and to understand all those basics, to correctly work with such technical values.

Now back to the topic: in most limiters you can set the desired output level back to -3dB to get a peak of -3dB. This also lowers your LUFS again, so you would need to reach around -9LUFS with the limiter before the output level setting which should result in -12LUFS.

Also keep in mind there are different LUFS values, like short/integrated. You probably want -12LUFS integrated, but keep in mind that the dynamic of the whole project from start to end also goes into the integrated value (which means short-term LUFS could be around -12 during your loudest part for example, but the integrated value will be lower, as I don't think your whole track always has the same elements and loudness throughout. that would be uncommon.)

My question would be though why you want to hit these specific targets in the first place.

My advice: don't worry about specific peak targets as long as you don't clip the stereo/master out in the end of your chain and get the project as loud as your mix allows it in the mastering stage. Sometimes you may find, that you have to go back and fix something in the mix.

Peak/TP of 0dB is totally fine in most cases. LUFS as much as it allows. I don't master for streaming LUFS targets (e.g -14 LUFS / -1dB TP). Analyzing big releases you'll see they don't do either.

Hope that helps you on your way regarding these topics.

Thanks for tour elaborate reponse. I will look for a good maximizer. The reason I want a specific LUFS is because I want my melodies-for-collaboration to have a consistent perceived loudness with a consisent amount of headroom. When I am going to share my loops I want them to have that consistency of loudness and the same amount of headroom.

I just got sent a loop pack and all the loops were consistent in loudness and in db output and I was very pleased to receive those, which inspired me to do deliver the same. 

[Yalopa]

Are you still in the create / arrange phase as " melodies-for-collaboration" suggest?  in that case I would not worry about LUFS, and nether should the people you collaborate with.  Once your piece is done, and you are mixing / mastering it's something to look for..

[AXXENTS]

22 minutes ago, Raoulsplace said:

Thanks for tour elaborate reponse. I will look for a good maximizer. The reason I want a specific LUFS is because I want my melodies-for-collaboration to have a consistent perceived loudness with a consisent amount of headroom. When I am going to share my loops I want them to have that consistency of loudness and the same amount of headroom.

I just got sent a loop pack and all the loops were consistent in loudness and in db output and I was very pleased to receive those, which inspired me to do deliver the same. 

You can easily do this with the "Limiter" stock plug-in in Logic. For more advanced limiting options I can recommend Fabfilter Pro-L2. If that is too pricey have a look at TDR Limiter 6 GE (currently on a 60% sale at Plugin Boutique -> mostly always on sale). But there are so many options out there so I'd recommend to research them a bit and compare/test them and look what works best for you.

Well then, I think they just limited them around a -9 LUFS target and then turned them down -3dB which resulted in -12 LUFS. This way you have a bit of headroom when dragging them back in. But not that much actually. 2-3 Loops should already clip the Stereo Out Bus again (depends on the frequency content of the individual loops).

In your case I'd actually limit them to an "easy" lower LUFS target (i.e. easy for different frequency content to reach) and just leave the peak at -0dB. After dragging them on a track, you just turn the gain down for as much headroom as you want. Consider values like -6dB or even -12dB. Or you could just set the output volume on the limiter (as mentioned before) to -6dB/-12dB or whatever you feel works good for you.

Good luck and have fun!

[Raoulsplace]

37 minutes ago, AXXENTS said:

You can easily do this with the "Limiter" stock plug-in in Logic. For more advanced limiting options I can recommend Fabfilter Pro-L2. If that is too pricey have a look at TDR Limiter 6 GE (currently on a 60% sale at Plugin Boutique -> mostly always on sale). But there are so many options out there so I'd recommend to research them a bit and compare/test them and look what works best for you.

Well then, I think they just limited them around a -9 LUFS target and then turned them down -3dB which resulted in -12 LUFS. This way you have a bit of headroom when dragging them back in. But not that much actually. 2-3 Loops should already clip the Stereo Out Bus again (depends on the frequency content of the individual loops).

In your case I'd actually limit them to an "easy" lower LUFS target (i.e. easy for different frequency content to reach) and just leave the peak at -0dB. After dragging them on a track, you just turn the gain down for as much headroom as you want. Consider values like -6dB or even -12dB. Or you could just set the output volume on the limiter (as mentioned before) to -6dB/-12dB or whatever you feel works good for you.

Good luck and have fun!

Thanks, I will look try this!