Logic 8 is useless (with pictures)

[TBR]

IMHO .....

never worked with Logic before version 8. Use to work in ProTools LE. But using Kontakt in ProTools felt very inefficient. 1 day a session would play fine, next day to many DSP overloads to work with. (I mainly use Kontakt and EWQL-gold for my score's)

So when Logic8 became so affordable I decided to make the switch. I started working out of the box, just following my intuition. Took me 1.5 week to become comfortable and be able to work in a normal speed, not hindered by technical questions. 4 weeks later finished the scoring of 5 short episodes of children TV.

I felt like being in heaven, working in Logic8. OK, there are some weird bugs and a few things are not impossible but just very inefficient ..... but hey, it's only version 8.0

During the project I started reading the manual in the train (I live about 30 min from my studio) and found out more radical cool stuff.

 

so in a nut shell .... not coming from Logic, I find Logic8 a BIG step ahead of my previous setup. It has a pretty steep learning curve but once you get the hang of it it's great.

 

GROET/tbr

[oceantracks]

I do songs of approximately 4-5 minutes in length with multiple tempo changes....(not just two or three) and have had no problems with error messages. But all my projects have started in L8, not 7. Perhaps that's it, or perhaps I just haven't done a long enough project yet....

 

Tom

[GeeMan]

You're unlikely to have Furious George's problems with those genres,given the rigid tempos that are prevalent.

Doubt the dots in the regions would be an issue for you either.

 

I work predominantly in rock/pop...

The core-usage distributioon problem is a serious isssue for me and will be the main (sorry to say) reason I switch back to L7 and start investigating other DAW's unless it is fixed pronto - At the moment I don't know if they're even bothered about it.

[Furious George]

You're unlikely to have Furious George's problems with those genres,given the rigid tempos that are prevalent.

Doubt the dots in the regions would be an issue for you either.

 

I work predominantly in rock/pop...

The core-usage distributioon problem is a serious isssue for me and will be the main (sorry to say) reason I switch back to L7 and start investigating other DAW's unless it is fixed pronto - At the moment I don't know if they're even bothered about it.

 

It does seem like this to me. Its been almost 4 months, and I havent been able to use logic 8 and my new mac. Ever since logic 8 came out I have found a new found love and respect for logic 7.

 

any word from apple? nothing.

[Patrick Wilson]

Hi,

I strongly object that someone calling themselves 'Furious George' has started this thread by cut and paste material from a link on my website as if it is their own words.

 

'Furious George' has added his own spin to what I wrote.

My words and images have been taken out of context.

My name is Patrick Wilson and the material that has been copied here is at

 

http://www.patrickwilsonmusic.com/logic8.html

 

I am not 'Furious George' ..in fact I'm not furious just frustrated.

 

I have problems with new LP 8 songs with tempo maps copied over from logic 7 and some other problems with automation. I do not think that Logic 8 is universally useless. I would never say that. It is simply frustrating for me since I've come against various problems.

 

Whilst 'Furious George' apparently strongly thinks what I wrote on my webpage is worth further broadcasting, he is wrong to give the impression here that he was the author of this material and to add to it in his own style.

 

Perhaps next he'll claim he wrote my music too

 

Patrick Wilson

[Patrick Wilson]

....Here is some further comment that I made on Apple discussions which will give some truthful context hopefully. Technically speaking I am still trying to work out what is causing the corruption of the tempo map etc. As I say I have now started a new LP8 template and am still getting problems with this unusually large arrangement.

 

Furious George - in future I'll post my comments myself when and where I wish and respond in my own way if you don't mind. I hope I would never sound so pompous as you BTW going on about 'Niche Film Markets ' etc.

 

From Apple Discussions last week:

 

Yes it was a current Logic 7 song that I opened in LP8. I opened a midi-only version of the song and then imported the audio tracks later. It was when I imported the audio that my attention was drawn to the fact that the Tempo List resolves in a slightly different way numerically (in terms of bar, beat Position) than LP7. I have LP7 running alongside on a separate G5 so I can directly compare everything which is useful. The audio was blatantly out of sync with the midi in LP8. I had made a few changes to the tempo in LP8 because the midi was unable to handle some of the original extreme tempo changes without dropping notes. (Another feature of the new tempo clock?) Anyway I set about manually matching the tempos back to those displayed on the LP7 original Tempo list to get the midi back in sync with the audio.

 

The odd thing is that it all worked fine for a while and then, inexplicably, the tempo list would suddenly corrupt in the way I described above. So I corrected the tempos again and carry on but the problem comes back. I should note that in LP8 I've been careful only to edit the tempo values NOT the Bar/ Beat numbers. I figured that might freak it out since it was unique to LP8. (It looks different in LP7)

 

My guess is that there's an algorithm in LP8 for translating LP7 song tempos and that there's a significant problem there. It's interesting that Aerocomposer has done tempo changes within a new LP8 template with no such problems. I might try that now and manually enter the tempos later. All 326 of 'em!

 

By the way, tempo changes were always totally stable on LP7 (7.1) on a G5 Dual 2.5 running 10.4.9 and Protools 6.9.

 

I'm pretty amazed that people are using Leopard over Tiger. My understanding was that I'd lose even more third party AU's than I already have moving to Intel.

Thanks for the replies.

______________

 

Thanks everyone. I know that the Undo History caused a lot of problems in LP7 so I'm in the habit of deleting that periodically. Also re-organising memory seems wise from time to time. I'm going to do as you've suggested and see what happens. If that fails I may have to create a new template in LP8 and just use a mixture of re-entering info and loading up all the audio again.

 

If your LP7 cues are opening ok it seems possible that my LP7 song might be corrupted in ways that were not apparent until opening in LP8. I most certainly will report my findings here in due course. It may take a day or two.

 

___________________

[el-bo]

 

 

 

how very bizarre.....and embarassing

 

oh...mr.george what is it that you want ???

 

 

thanks for pointing this out, patrick.....but i think i know what is causing your problems

 

an 8-core with 16 gig of ram is really nowhere near powerful enough

 

 

ps...i am assuming that a pro like yourself would have backed up all of these projects in L7 format, before jumping in 2-footed...??????

 

and how do things work for ya if you start from scratch in L8 with nothing imported from L7 ????...just curious

 

 

 

 

thanks again.....

[liquidlogic]

Is this the same problem but in a different window?

 

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=17625&highlight=

 

I posted this awhile back. If it is the same type of issue wouldnt this just be a display driver problem?

[Patrick Wilson]

Well.. all was going well and I was a happy bunny again. I created a brand new LP8 song made a bunch of tracks and dragged in the choir audio (which I'd converted into interleaved files. Then I turned off Core Audio, opened the old LP7 song in LP8 (not closing the new template) and copy/pasted the midi regions in. I also opened the Tempo List Editor and Time signature List and did the same with that.

 

So all was working great for at least 24 hours. I recreated all the VSL instruments, reverbs and levels . At this stage there was no automation in the new arrangement whatsoever- just the copy/pasted lists and audio from the LP7 song. Somebody rightly observed that there was a lot of CC data in the midi regions of course.

 

All I can report is that, this afternoon, when I started drawing in automation for the choir audio levels the tempo map (several times) corrupted in the manner I described and also I noticed that co-incidentally the audio regions stopped playing back and would only play in Solo. The midi regions and software instruments played back ok still.

 

I religiously save the song with different names so I can go back to earlier stages all the time which is what I'll do tomorrow. I've got qbout 200 saved versions of this track. I know I'm crazy to attempt finishing it in a new app, but I'm actually an optimist so I guess I'll try all avenues until it works. Also it's a good way of learning the new program. A good friend of mine is doing dance remixes and hasn't had these problems at all. He has some other ones to do with his favourite synths not working etc. He has been working with LP7 imported songs though. The diffference is the far lesser amout of CC data, time sig and tempo changes.

 

I think it's important for me to learn the limitations and problems now (it's Christmas after all) before I totally commit to using this thing when the pressure's on.

[Patrick Wilson]

Is this the same problem but in a different window?

 

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=17625&highlight=

 

I posted this awhile back. If it is the same type of issue wouldnt this just be a display driver problem?

 

I noticed something similar in the Sample Editor not updating the display. The thought had crossed my mind that my problems might co-inside with the process of actually 'viewing' the automation. It's hard to pin down. I'm going to try not to jump to conclusions ..I'll keep testing it. It's not to do with having the Global View Tempo widow open as it was shut once when it screwed itself up.

 

What's frustrating is not being in touch with the developers. I bought Sibelius 5 and spent a week on the phone with some very helpful guys who pointed out workarounds, told me when I'd actually unearthed a bug with gratitude and told me when I was missing something simple. if only we could talk to someone at Apple. Contrary to Furious George's report , I can tell you that I have had no conversations with anyone at Apple - however I did fill in their Logic Feedback form about some of this.

[el-bo]

well, patrick...you truly are a breath of fresh air......

 

with all of the problems you are having, whining and ranting about logic 8 (and apple) would be the obvious choice...the fact that you haven't is a great credit to you, and although this type of project is way out of my league at the moment, i'm sure that there will be many others (with similar issues) who will benefit from such calm and considered persistence

 

i wish you success and welcome you to logic pro help

[Beer Moth]

So Furious George is an imposter!

 

Crucify him!

 

Oh no!... that's Easter...

[Musicianista]

That makes me Angry Andy...

 

Peace & love Patrick... thanks for the clarity and I welcome ye aboard, arrr. ( Cue: wooden leg SFX )

 

-

[mikiber2]

hey patrick,

I have exactly the same issues here, but now i begin to understand that its mostly appending when i Import old projects from lp7 witch already have some complicated tempo changes.

I will make some tests with new projects in lp8.

 

btw, how is the vsl ? i'm thinking of buying the special edition, ... ?

[Patrick Wilson]

Over on Apple Discussions someone has confirmed that this is happening in totally new LP8 songs.

 

I also have pretty much run out of ideas about what's causing this now. Someone here pointed out that pre 'bar 1' info could be problematic. Well, I've now got a track which starts absolutely at bar 1 and I stiil get the "Non Tempo-Event found in Sync Reference" message and sudden mysterious corruptions of the tempo list. Last time it happened the list managed to change some tempo events into pitch bend events- which was a surprise to see in a tempo list!

 

Personally I think we've all pretty much exhausted trying to find a specific action that causes this bug - we may well now have to wait for Apple to address the issue.

[honeybee]

I purchased Logic 7 six weeks prior to Logic 8 being released. When I saw that Logic 8 was released I did my homework and decided against purchasing Logic 8 because of all the complaints.

 

I also hear that Leopard has problems too. Decided to keep my new Mac with its Tiger platform. Although, I was told from Apple that Logic 8 runs smoothly on Leopard and not as well on Tiger.

 

Could that be the problem others have been having running L8?

 

Well I'm learning how to operate L7 currently and have had no problems so far. Runs beautifully.

 

I just wish they still conducted workshops on L7. I was hoping to take one.

[Patrick Wilson]

How about this for the latest weird corruption of the tempo!

 

By the way I actually saw the tempo graph perform one of these weird gymnastic feats when I was actually not even touching the keyboard or mouse. It was a particularly creepy thing to see - happening all by itself!

[Versamina]

Over on Apple Discussions someone has confirmed that this is happening in totally new LP8 songs.

 

I also have pretty much run out of ideas about what's causing this now. Someone here pointed out that pre 'bar 1' info could be problematic. Well, I've now got a track which starts absolutely at bar 1 and I stiil get the "Non Tempo-Event found in Sync Reference" message and sudden mysterious corruptions of the tempo list. Last time it happened the list managed to change some tempo events into pitch bend events- which was a surprise to see in a tempo list!

 

Personally I think we've all pretty much exhausted trying to find a specific action that causes this bug - we may well now have to wait for Apple to address the issue.

 

Straight up- this has happened to me many times on LP7 also-Always with multiple tempos, hyperdraw info and automation.

I suspect the "pre bar 1" scenario is relevant also...

But...might it be something to do with third party plugs like Vienna instruments?.All my tempo corruption problems have occurred when using these-Could the plug in have something to do with it?

[clonewar]

Wow, the characters that turn up in internet forums never ceases to amaze. Why on earth would someone cut and paste what someone else has written and then start posting it on another forum as their own? I'll bet Mr George has been here before under another name...

[Patrick Wilson]

Straight up- this has happened to me many times on LP7 also-Always with multiple tempos, hyperdraw info and automation.

I suspect the "pre bar 1" scenario is relevant also...

But...might it be something to do with third party plugs like Vienna instruments?.All my tempo corruption problems have occurred when using these-Could the plug in have something to do with it?

 

I can't see how plug-ins could starting writing rubbish into the Tempo List. But then I'm just using this thing - I don't know what's going on under the hood. My Vienna Instruments are working better than ever. That's one thing I'm well pleased about.

Every day I click 'Software Update' hoping for salvation. Bit pathetic but there you are.

[ski]

Hi Patrick,

 

I've been helping you out over on "that other forum" (iSchwartz). Regarding your not having any data before bar 1 (which I'm sure you've checked thoroughly), check your automation data as well. This can be done via key command (automation editor) on any track that contains automation data. Examine some of those tracks and see if any of the automation data happens to start before bar 1. If you find any, it might be a sign...

[dkgross]

all the more reason why I start EVERY song on Bar 2.

[ski]

all the more reason why I start EVERY song on Bar 2.

 

DK, you're such a rebel!

[Patrick Wilson]

Regarding your not having any data before bar 1 (which I'm sure you've checked thoroughly), check your automation data as well. This can be done via key command (automation editor) on any track that contains automation data. Examine some of those tracks and see if any of the automation data happens to start before bar 1. If you find any, it might be a sign...

 

Hi again - I did that. I deleted all automation data on all tracks. Then I moved that little bracket (that drags out an area before bar 1) up to bar one. You can't do this if there is any automation data there. This pre-bar 1 stuff is a distraction. It's not to do with that as far as I can see. The tempo list continues to occasionally corrupt when there's nothing before bar one. Now I have developed a rather unsatisfactory workaround/compromise.

 

That is: I copy and paste the correct tempo list into the alternate tempo locations. It's as simple as that. There seem to be about 4 available - maybe more. This way I can quickly revert to the correct tempo list. I delete the corrupt one and paste back the data. In practice I've been keeping the copied data in the buffer and just pasting it back in as soon as a corruption occurs. I have actually almost finished mixing my track like this. There seems to be no specific action that causes this problem. Except, like I said it sometimes happens when I've just saved.

[ski]

.     Edited December 18, 2007 by ski

[Fleabag]

Wow, those tempo corruptions are weird. I noticed the horizontal jumps all go back in time. Now if you could just persaude them to go forward in time, you would have discovered time travel and might find Logic 9 is now available and fixes all known wrongs in the Universe.... 8)

 

On a more serious note, can the Admins detect IP address for users posting messages, to try to correlate multiple IDs against the single user?

 

Cheers