Key Signature in Logic?! Help a brutha out

[christian83]

Hey all,

 

I just got Sibelius 5 to help me make lead sheets for my tunes.

While on a message board, someone mentioned that they thought there was a way for Logic to determine the key of the song you're working in.

 

This would be a HUGE help for me as my theory chops, though alright, leave much to be desired.

 

So if anyone (David, you're a Logic god..) knows if this is possible, ~PLEASE~ let me know.

 

It would make my life (and prep for going into the studio with some musicians) sooo much easier.

 

Thanks guys!

 

-Christian

 

ps-this forum is possibly the best community I've ever come across. Everyone is so positive and helpful.

[maeghan]

On the arrange page there is a track at the top that says "Global Tracks" ... within this there is a specific track for Signatures where you can cue in the key signature and the time signature.

 

One of Logic's most powerful editors is the Notation editor ... you can call it up by hitting "N" on your keyboard ... you can make lead sheets, guitar tab, and classical notation ...

 

hope this helps

[christian83]

What i"m looking for, is to be able to play the tune through within logic via a midi instrument (keys), and have it tell me what key the tune is in.

 

I know that I can manually set the key signature under global tracks, but wasn't sure if Logic could pull off the above mentioned.

[pantomimeHorse]

What i"m looking for, is to be able to play the tune through within logic via a midi instrument (keys), and have it tell me what key the tune is in ......

-

Hi Christian.

-

More a kind of music question than a Logic question !

Sometimes. it's obvious what key you're in, sometimes it isn't.

What a key signature determines is where the tonic note of the

12-note scale falls. There is no absolute way for Logic, or any

other software, to state categorically that a piece is in Cm or

EflatMaj, or any other key.

-

If it's a 12 bar and your bass is moving from C to F to G, it's

a fair bet you're in C or Amin, but it's not a racing certainty.

Transposition between keys is, of course, dead easy in Logic.

If you have a MIDI track which is in Eflat and you are more

comfortable adding other parts in, say, F, you can just transpose

by +2 and the whole thing will then play in F.

-

C

[ski]

In Logic 7 the transport will continually show you what chords you are playing. I think Logic 8 offers the same thing. Check your transport.

 

Otherwise Logic can't tell you what key a song is in.

 

But... wait a second... if you're writing the song, wouldn't you know what key it's in?

[christian83]

Like I said, my theory chops aren't the best. I can recognize notes, pick out chords from sheet music..I have a basic grasp on the circle of fifths, but key signatures have always boggled my mind.

 

Yes I write the songs, so I know the chords that I'm playing, but that doesn't mean I instinctually know what key the song is in.

[pantomimeHorse]

......... key signatures have always boggled my mind.

 

Yes I write the songs, so I know the chords that I'm playing, but that doesn't mean I instinctually know what key the song is in.

-

The purists will fry my nuts for saying this but, actually, key signatures

are to a large extent, irrelevant in a lot of modern music. Pitching a song

in any particular key will make it possible for untunable instruments (like

a sax or a trumpet) to be able to play to the song, but apart from that

consideration, there isn't much mileage in the idea that a song "lives" in

a particular key.

-

The main consideration when pitching a song is whether the vocalist(s)

can handle the range.

-

But, as ski so rightly points out, the input pane in the transport always

translates each CHORD, so you get an idea of where you're headed.

 

 

-

C

[christian83]

Thanks for the input guys. It's mucho appreciated.

[Subtonic]

The purists will fry my nuts for saying this but, actually, key signatures

are to a large extent, irrelevant in a lot of modern music…there isn't much mileage in the idea that a song "lives" in a particular key.

 

Oooh - urge to kill…rising.

[Beer Moth]

[The purists will fry my nuts for saying this but, actually, key signatures

are to a large extent, irrelevant in a lot of modern music. -

C

 

Only if you're not a musician.

The OP wants to print dots for session guys so...

With the exception of some modal and atonal stuff,key IS absolute,in 99/100 cases.

The best way is to do the theory and eartraining.

A combination of hard work and experience.

No real short cuts,I'm afraid....

Practice,man,practice...

[Beer Moth]

...And....

Printing it the wrong key sig is worse than printing it with no key sig.

"Extreme" keys would be a pain though,or ambiguos/borderline enharmonics.(C#m or Dbm? where does the rest of the tonality go?).

 

But as a short rule of thumb,(difficult in this medium!) the first chord of the last 2 bars of the 'main' section will often be the Tonic (or home) key.

Again,use your ears,does it sound like home?

Cross reference it with cycle of 5ths theory,does it progress inevitably to the 'last' chord?

 

Hope this helps a bit.

[pantomimeHorse]

Oooh - urge to kill…rising.

-

Yeah, sub, I knew I'd get someone's gander up but I don't think

Christian is after printing out a score. (Correct me here, man, if

I'm out of order)

-

There are subtleties which Cloggy has pointed out and, yes, I

do understand them because I did a lot of music theory, but I

was trying to simplify Christian's problem down to a concept

that was useful to him.

-

You don't just move "frequencies" when you transpose, of course.

You move those intimate intervals which, as Cloggy says, are

important. My only point, really, was that some of these more

delicate musical relationships are either not present in a lot of

the pop genre, or else they are undetectable by its audiences.

 

 

-

C

[Eric Wikman]

Many times, the first chord in your song will be the Key.

Use your ear and try to sing a high string note that would fit over most your song.. and feels like "home".. like Cloggy said... or the strongest.

 

But really, you might want to get a couple lessons on how to spot this and be done with it.

It's really much more important, and much more use-able than the circle of 5ths stuff.

[Ashermusic]

[The purists will fry my nuts for saying this but, actually, key signatures

are to a large extent, irrelevant in a lot of modern music. -

C

 

Only if you're not a musician.

The OP wants to print dots for session guys so...

With the exception of some modal and atonal stuff,key IS absolute,in 99/100 cases.

The best way is to do the theory and eartraining.

A combination of hard work and experience.

No real short cuts,I'm afraid....

Practice,man,practice...

 

Many film scorers nowadays do not use key signatures as they believe it cuts down on player errors when you have a lot of music to record on a tight schedule.

[christian83]

Wow, I obviously struck a debate here lol

 

Honestly, I know having the music theory down is really important and IS the resolution to my question.

 

Though what I'm doing isn't scoring or grandiose arranging.

My stuff is soul/pop/rock/blues, and as such isn't overly complicated.

 

What I need is basic chord change lead sheet so any musicians I gig with or tak in to the studio, can follow through the tune. So I can actually just do this by writing out the chord progressions and section changes, but I figured adding the correct key signature would only be a positive thing.

 

I'm also very open with the musicians I work with and allow them to really define their own part rather than having them stick to the page. As long as they're following the changes, I encourage sharing of ideas. It's the best way to flesh out a tune.

 

But yeah, I'd definitely love to get my theory down eventually. It's on my list of 'To-Do's'.

 

 

-Christian

 

ps-I mean, the Beatles wrote great tunes, and god knows they didn't have theory training. (McCartney composed the 'Working Classical' record! lol)

[Doug Z]

Great thread -

 

The OP wants to generate lead sheets for players. Players who read are used to having the music reflect the tonality (key) of the piece with the key signature - film music being a notable exception as already pointed out. To me the reason film music avoids key signatures is the way it is written - often moving through many key areas and often lacking an obvious tonal center. If your parts are written in a style players are accustomed to, the piece will come together much faster. I think the correct key signature would certainly help the performers.

 

My guess is the OP's music is not atonal nor does it modulate often. Therefore the correct key center would assist reading musicians. As already pointed out, the choice of no key signature is a way better than the wrong one (although no signature is also the signature for the key of C).

 

Regarding the question of how to tell what key (or keys) a song is in, Logic won't do it. Your ears can,( as already pointed out) if you have a background in basic theory and have a trained ear. The first chord (already noted) of the piece can be the chord that tells you the key - say it's a C so I'm in C. But the last chord is generally more accurate. It's a G so I'm in G - that would make the first chord a IV chord. (Can't tell you how many songs I've learned on the bandstand where I ask what key it's in and I get the key of the first chord and it's really the IV - talk about twisting the tonal ear around.)

 

Composers who complete the project in Logic (for example) without using other musicians don't need to worry about key signatures. Nor is it a concern when a musician comes in to add a part - if they have the time to learn by rote. But, if you want to use written music to transfer information to other musicians, make it as accurate as possible. While written music is challenged to express a lot of modern musical expression, it still has validity.

 

And getting back to the OP's issue of wanting to know the key signature - probably quite valid for the style of music he is working with. His musicians will appreciate a properly written lead sheet and the performance will come together in less time because of it.

 

So christian83, most musician who teach and/or perform a lot could tell you the key in just a short listen - or even by looking at the chord symbols. If nothing else works, e-mail me an mp3 and I'll tell you. If it's in a key I'll hear it right away.

 

Doug

[ski]

It could be said that the problem with the use of sharps or flats in naming notes (also known as "pitch class") imparts a sense of unneeded sense of complication. Why aren't the 12 notes of the scale simply named A through L and call it a day? Then the multiple variations on any one pitch class, such as A natural, A sharp, A flat, A double sharp, and A double flat would be rendered moot.

 

Let's say we used this A - L system, and that the note designated as "A" was what we call "A" today (to keep things simple). The note of "K" would be the equivalent of what we nomrally call a "G". So a half step down from "K" wouldn't be F# or Gb but simply "J". With this kind of system, all notes would have one and only one name. Seems like this has the potential to uncomplicate the system of learning note names.

 

But that's just not the way music notation developed. The first music notation, developed in the Church in medieval Europe, was used to communicate tonal music. It's these tonal roots that have shaped the invention and evolution of music notation as we know it today. Fortunately, music notation has evolved further than it has from its origins as a four line staff, moveable clefs, and neumes (to indicate pitch and duration) and no key signatures.

 

http://www.score2picture.com/logicpix/neumes.gif

 

But aside from atonal/aleatoric music, film score considerations, and other situations where the writing doesn't deem a key signature practical (Poulenc's Quintet for Winds and Piano comes to mind), most popular music is written against a key center of some kind. And so, to communicate the basic key of that song/composition, as well as to communicate diversions from that key, sharps, flats, and naturals are used as needed. And they're needed because of the way music notation developed through the centuries, because of the way that music theory has become forumlated to describe musical movement, and because your piano teacher said so LOL!

[Beer Moth]

Because of the harmonic sreies which gives the notes of the diatonic major scale in the order 1.5.3.b7,9(2),(11),(b)13,7 etc.(C.G,E,Bb,D,(F),A(b),B etc).

Hence the German H for the maj 7,and B for the m7 (Bb).

 

The normal way is the first three od harmonics of the tonic,sub dominant and dominant.

C,E,G and F,A,C, and G,B,D.

Chords I IV and V.

[Beer Moth]

Oooh - urge to kill…rising.

-

You don't just move "frequencies" when you transpose, of course.

You move those intimate intervals which, as Cloggy says, are

important. My only point, really, was that some of these more

delicate musical relationships are either not present in a lot of

the pop genre, or else they are undetectable by its audiences.

 

 

-

C

 

The frequencies will remain the same,relatively.

That is, the ratios between them will.(In equal temper).

[Beer Moth]

 

What I need is basic chord change lead sheet so any musicians I gig with or tak in to the studio, can follow through the tune. So I can actually just do this by writing out the chord progressions and section changes, but I figured adding the correct key signature would only be a positive thing.

 

 

 

-)

 

Then choose Lead sheat in the score style .

Job's a good 'un!

[rjtemple]

Many times, the first chord in your song will be the Key.

Use your ear and try to sing a high string note that would fit over most your song.. and feels like "home".. like Cloggy said... or the strongest.

 

Even more often than the first chord of a piece, the last chord of the piece can help determine the key.

[rjtemple]

Pitching a song in any particular key will make it possible for untunable instruments (like a sax or a trumpet) to be able to play to the song..."

 

I'm lost here. You can't tune a sax or trumpet, therefore you pick a key?

[Beer Moth]

I was a bit perturbed about that,but let it go.

I think he meant that a key would need to be established so as to know what the transposition would have to be,but that is equally valid whether there is a key or not.

Dig?

 

 

 

Not sure I do!

[rjtemple]

Also, being a sax player myself, I didn't know if he was dissing our types or not. (there have been more than a few times where my intonation wasn't cutting it. )

 

Rich

[Beer Moth]

Practice,man,practice.

8)

[pantomimeHorse]

Also, being a sax player myself, I didn't know if he was dissing our types or not. (there have been more than a few times where my intonation wasn't cutting it. )

 

Rich

 

No way am I dissing sax players ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

 

Quite the reverse.

 

-

C

[tjanz]

Key signature or tonal center is totally dependent on what is perceived as the point of rest, or the tonic note. I can use only the white keys and have a melody in C major or I can use the same keys and have a melody as D dorian mode (or G mixolydian for that matter). So what makes the difference? Analyzing the pitch set is not sufficient in itself and therefore Logic is not able to do this.

 

So what makes us actually perceive a tonic note? Yes, the tonic is important on its own, but what really makes it a tonic is its relationship with a dominant note. To make a white note set sound like D dorian instead of C major, I have the note D hanging out with its dominant - A. If we hear D and A together then we perceive D as the tonic (this also relates to the harmonic series in that A is the third harmonic of D, the first two being D and D an octave higher).

 

The theory books make it out to be smoke and mirrors, but it always comes down to the tonic - dominant relationship. It would actually be a fairly easy algorithm to formulate. Take the notes that are most frequent, of the longest duration, are the highest and/or lowest in the melodic contour, as well as the notes that are most often leapt to or from (instead of stepwise motion) and you will probably find two that are found as statistically more important than the others. These would most likely be a Perfect 5th apart, the tonic is the bottom of the fifth and the dominant is the top (if they are a 4th apart, it is really an inverted 5th and the relationship is upside down). Easy. This works for all diatonic music, that is music in key signatures, as well as modal music.

 

Try it out, it is the way we perceive music, so it will give you the right tonal center every time. (Unless the composer is playing with your brain and creating ambiguities.)

 

Tim (theory dude)

[ski]

Christian83, I gather that you're the songwriter, correct? If so, I'm just curious as to why you can't figure out what key your song is in.

 

And if you've any doubt, like I said previously, Logic will display the chord you're playing at any given time in the transport.

 

But...

 

Wait...

 

Hold on a second... gonna try something...

 

Yes... Uh huh...

 

(play play play, mouse mouse mouse, adjust display, hit button...)

 

OK boys and girls, even at 5 in the morning, the ol' brain has remembered something that Logic do. Just look at what Logic do!

 

http://www.score2picture.com/logicpix/chordz.jpg

 

It analyzes chords! It shows you what you've played in the Global Track *Chords*. Just hit the "analyze button". What you see there are just some random chords I banged in (don't even have a sound up). But dagnabbit if Logic isn't showin exactly what chords I've played, to a "T"!

 

So that should shut us all up then, eh?

 

[Beer Moth]

Yeah,but what key's it in?

[ski]

Yeah,but what key's it in?

 

Q, of course!

 

("R" if you're a sax player)