No new L8 upgrade - that's why?

[EdgarRothermich]

Did you ever wonder why there haven't been any more upgrades/bug fixes in Logic since 8.01? I mean L8 came out about half a year ago and all we got since then was a lousy .01 release that created more bugs than it fixed (i.e. Mixer view filter).

 

Did you try to report the new bugs in 8.01 to the Logic Feedback page on the Apple website? You can't select version 8.01, only 8.0. You also can't select the OS X v10.4.11. I don't think that the Logic developers look at that site and are aware of it. They just accessing the linked database and what do they see - no new bugs related to 8.01 - YEAH!

Could it be that they are sitting in their offices in Hamburg all that winter and still waiting for the first 8.01 bug reports to come in?

 

Next time someone tells you, you should list your bug reports on Apple's Feedback page, because that's where the developers are getting their feedback - I would question the seriousness of that procedure. Maybe it is just an online vent for the frustrated users to make them believe their voice counts and is heard by the developer.

 

There is an endless list of small annoying bugs that should have been taken care of right after 8.0 that would have qualified for an 8.01 fix.

I still can't believe that graphic mess that L8 is still in. Popups don't react properly to Key commands, click behavior of the local menu buttons is non-Mac like, I mentioned the unusable view filter buttons in the mixer window already. The whole thing around windows is beyond broken. What happened to standards of colors, mouse-over, Key-Focus, etc. Using Logic with multiple displays is a joke. File Selector boxes and Alert windows pop up wherever they want with no "logic" behind it. And the list goes on and on.

All those things are not serious bugs like crashes, instability and other more life threatening issues. These are just sloppy, sloppy coding oversights that annoy the hell out me on a daily basis and should have been corrected right after the initial release with an 8.01 and not hang around a half year after the original release.

 

Don't get me wrong, I looove L8 with all its changes (maybe not so much the omissions). The workflow has improved greatly and I'm really thankful for that. But I'm also really frustrated with the speed of development or should I say bug fixing. Forget about that "ProTools Killer" nonsense. How about the Logic developer would for the rest of 2008 ignore all the really cool stuff in other products (Melodyne NDA, ProTools Time Streching, etc) and concentrate on a stable, reliable and functional product. Take care of that first before you enter the next round of innovation. Always Remember that your product has a PRO in its title. Please live up to it.

 

 

End of rant, so what's next?

8.01 came out about three month after 8.0 and now it is about 3 month since the 8.01 release. Could there be the next update around the corner? At least for 8.0 bug fixes (remember, 8.01 didn't have any bugs according Apple's feedback page)

[ski]

Edgar,

 

Let's not get carried away with the "Pro" moniker. It's just marketing. Let's instead acknowledge the term "pro" for what it is. Professionals don't need to be reminded that they're professional by dint of the term "pro". The caché of "pro" is designed to attract the non-pro (which is totally fine, everyone has to start somewhere with something, and the more the merrier to our DAW-of-choice party!) But particularly because the word "pro" is included in the title should be a warning sign to both professional or hobbyist alike that there is no implicit level of service or even satisfaction to be had. Logic, before it had the term "pro" attached to it, was just as suitable as it is now (maybe even more so) for professional-level work. YMMV of course.

 

What isn't "pro", from a truly professional standpoint, is exactly the rest of what you described --- lack of communication and lack of support. There I am in agreement.

[DaniGordon]

Good thread and great posts of both of you.

[simonphoenix]

The whole irony in the lack of Logic support is that it's the pro-audio users that buy up a large bulk of their most expensive machines!!

 

We fork over more than graphic designers do these days, who are quite happy living on a sexy iMac, and even the video industry can use those machines hooked up to a Final Cut Server.

 

So these days, the bulk of their Mac Pro clientele are pro audio users, among one or 2 other industries. We fork out for their software & OS on top of all that. And in return, we're treated like second rate citizens!!

 

3 years for an update and now Logic is where it should have been 3 years ago!!

 

It's being left behind in the dust by even some semi-professional enthusiast applications. Soundtrack Pro refuses to work for months!!

 

Any other application and Apple would have had a fix out in a matter of days.

 

But we don't deserve that. Notice in the cycle of software releases, Logic is LAST on the list!! After Logic, they're back to the top with their OS.

 

It's sad because Logic was once a very powerful, deep program ahead on the cutting edge. Asides from a face list and one or 2 other actually useful improvements, Logic 8 doesn't really offer anything new.

 

Just a turd polished up.

 

I for one would prefer to foot a slightly higher price and actually have Logic taken seriously, than let it degrade as it is.

 

GO on Apple, employ some more guys, you can afford it. Stop stealing our Logic team to work on your countless new gadgets that I have no bloody use for!!

 

Treat us fairly, after all, we have paid for the privilege with all the money we have out laid!!!

 

Just because you bundle a whole heap of loops and a sample library with Logic, doesn't make up for your lack of ambition. Hell all the bloody samples are primitive & dog tired anyway. It would have been OK 5 years ago. But so much has changed in sampling technology and what is acceptable now.

 

Even looking around I have noticed that there are virtually no new releases for the EXS24!!! While good for it's time, developers loath it now!! Hideous editor, no script support, un intuitive, limited polyphony.

 

I hate to think that those ridiculous JamPacks are all we can get in the future for the EXS24. Look at Strike, look at Kontakt, look at GigaSampler, that's where you need to be now, albeit with your own DSP efficient, low latency version.

 

And Edgar i encourage you to change the title a little, so that you may encourage other people to have a say and grab the attention of the few Apple folk who wander through here.

 

Maybe you can start a poll.

 

Let them know how we feel. And let their stock holders know, for God's sake... Maybe then after the threat of losing stock value will Apple take out bloody plea seriously!!!!

 

Logic is luck it was deep to begin with, because that's the only thing it has to hold on to barely meet today's standard.

 

And FFS don't just make it a musicians platform. It's a hell of a lot more intuitive to use for post-production and working to video than Soundtrack Pro is!!... And that doesn't even work!!!!

[Fred B]

Let them know how we feel...

I guess Apple isn't much interested in our feelings but simply act according to the common business rule: maximal profit at minimal costs. Considering the fact that high quality software development/support is very expensive they're probably thinking there is no need for action as long as the sales figures are high enough.

[DaniGordon]

Well, music making won't stop happening if Logic dies.

 

We all here like Logic a lot, and for me Logic 8 is working fine.

Could we have 8.1 already?

Yes. But Logic 8 allows me to write and record music perfectly.

 

I do think though we will have a lot of happiness with Logic in the future.

But if not, we'll find some other software to have pleasure working with and let's move on.

 

The software is just a tool for what our mind is creating.

I prefer nice tools, like Logic, but there are some great apps out there too. Live, Nuendo... even Pro Tools 7.4

 

And after all... after what Peter Neubäcker showed us in the last MusikMess, I don't know what's going to happen from now on in the DAWs domain.

Maybe we'll be back to tape and no editing/quantizing/tunning at all...

I'd like that.

 

And I got a feeling that Apple, as an innovator and leader company from the very start, has some folks from the Logic team taking a closer look at Celemony's DNA.

 

Maybe Apple could buy Celemony.

Sorry, I'm starting to divagate...

[ski]

It's sad because Logic was once a very powerful, deep program ahead on the cutting edge. Asides from a face list and one or 2 other actually useful improvements, Logic 8 doesn't really offer anything new.

 

Bugs and issues aside, what's not powerful and deep about it now? What's missing from Logic that's so vital to the way you make music? That's not a flame question, just curious. I see you're being passionate here with your post, so really, what's missing?

 

Just a turd polished up.

 

How long have you been using this turd? Has the turd served you in the past? Does it serve you now? Or have you moved on to another DAW that's less turdish™? Most people who feel that strongly would have moved on. But you're posting this here and, I dunno, I have the feeling this post of yours doesn't represent the last hair on Logic's head slipping from your grasp as it dangles over the edge of the abyss. But I could be totally wrong.

 

Look, I have my problems with Logic too. I've been a pretty vocal critic across this and other forums. And when I run into a bug it'll sometimes really bend me out of shape. But I wouldn't ever go so far as to say Logic is a turd, because it's most definitely not.

 

Logic is luck it was deep to begin with, because that's the only thing it has to hold on to barely meet today's standard.

 

This makes no sense to me. What is "today's standard"?

<------ Please explain this one to the band...

 

 

 

[el-bo]

¨turdish™¨

 

i know you aren´t trying to....but across various posts, today, you are just CRACKING me up

[ski]

¨turdish™¨

 

i know you aren´t trying to....but across various posts, today, you are just CRACKING me up

 

 

But not for nothing, when I see your sig it makes me laugh every time...

 

"logic studio, mbp c2d...loads of other bits of shite"

 

My wife is English (me be American). Been married for 7 years but I still get a kick out of it when she says "that's shite" or "a load of old tosh" or "some old tat" and stuff like that. We both protest at the use of "pants" (tho secretly I think it's pretty funny). So I let her think that I think that "pants" is pants. LOL!

 

Cheers!

 

[and now back to our regularly scheduled, sometimes (but not always) well-deserved, Logic b!tch fest]

[el-bo]

and not forgetting bollocks !! don´t know if the word´s big in america.....but said with an english accent it´s a real treat.......

 

 

B O L L O C K S !!!!!!

[el-bo]

and ski....we seem to be here also

 

 

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=22063&start=20

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

I've only experienced some *seriously* commited people going out of their way to listen to comments.

 

I've personally had a visit in my studio in Denmark from the original developer team, and had a good hour long talk about what features to include or change for Logic 8 (this was back during the making of Logic 8 ).

 

There's just been a big round of feedback last month with deadline 29th of February, and I was asked by the Scandinavian BDM from Apple to put my comments forth again. So personally I feel they are indeed listening to user input.

 

They certainly collect this data from all around and compile some priority lists, so I believe it's a combination of pro user and general user feedback.

 

As it's not a completely open procedure I can understand why some people might be frustrated though, and no software is bug free (I know, what a cliché!).

 

So they are working on 8.0.2 or whatever the version number will be, I'm not sure we'll see a 8.1 just yet.

[simonphoenix]

It's not easy to jump platforms... what else will playback Logic's stuff faithfully. I'm beyond the point of no return.

 

What's missing, stability and innovation, new life new air. Reliably updates to fix major issues. Soundtrack Pro continuing to not work after months is very unprofessional of them.

 

Logic is only powerful now because it's features existed in the past to, it's just been repackaged. They are lucky Logic was deep to begin with, because it just manages to bring them up to par now. Yet the included Sample Instruments are so dated they are obsolete. And you do get better quality stuff bundled with other apps... but how do I jump platforms now

 

I do see a hint of a future, it's there in Mainstage which I believe to be an early incarnation of Logic 9, complete with rebuild.

 

But I sound off to say the level of commitment seems to be poor at best. 3 years without a major update is testament to that. Soundtrack Pro not working since before Christmas is also testament.

 

I implore Apple to put more staff an so they don't have to spread their resources thinly and put them to work on some gadget I'm never going to need.

 

Give Logic users the respect and attention they deserved, and paid for. Don't just dismiss us for another 3 years.

[el-bo]

and again....you let others speak, ignore them and then repeat yourself

 

you could really save yourself a lot of typing

[simonphoenix]

A little repetition, but more trying to outline earlier relevant remarks I made and put them in context with additional information I provide to outline the reasons why, to maybe enlighten why such remarks were made in the first place.... Look again.

 

I'm not the only one who has spoken out, and most of the time when I'm not busy getting on with it, I help other users defeat their issues and not bitch about the bad things in Logic. I'm generally one of the nicest guys around. Quiet, dutiful, productive, creative, kind helpful.

 

Yet once in a while once enough frustration and angst has set in, it has to be vented... and no better place to direct it than in a relevant thread. Where these kind of thoughts can actually be heard, and maybe some action is taken as a result. Everyone has a Hyde lurking in them, but not everyone can justify their position.

 

But yet I seem to have struck a nerve with you, and out of everyone else who has said their piece. you target me. That's OK we're all entitled our opinion.

 

I got nothing wrong with Logic's development team, I think they're a bunch of geniuses, I do however have a problem with management making these guys jump through other hoops so they are not able to give us the support we require.

 

My quibble is directed at the paper pushes.

 

I've said my piece and at this point I desire to make no further counter arguments and will return to what it is I do best... getting on with it.

[tyronehowe]

Hello All

 

I also feel compelled to add to this thread. Sorry it’s ended up so long.

 

It is very difficult to criticise any DAW without passions running high, and this is understandable because professionals and amateurs alike spend a lot of time learning their DAW and also understandably defend it completely.

 

I originally used Pro-24 on Ataris years ago, and when I “got back” into music a few years ago I naturally went with Cubase. I used SX3 for about 18 months and it was good, not perfect, but useable to me up to a point (the audio stretching never consistently worked). However, Steinberg’s very offish attitude about bug fixing was not good and my personal final straw with Steinberg came at the beginning of 2007 when they announced that they would not now be updating SX3 as they had promised a year earlier.

 

So to cut a long story short, I moved to Logic. I tried to do as much research as I could before the change. From all that I read, it was obvious that Logic 7 was lacking in certain areas (such as audio editing, non-destructive editing and so on), but many people were of the opinion that Logic 8 was “just around the corner” so I gambled and went with it. I found Logic 7 very hard to get into – multi-timbral instruments were nothing like as easy to use as Cubase for example. I was happier when Logic 8 was released, apart from the bugginess and the core overloads and so on, it did seem better.

 

But after the dust settled, I realised that LP8 hadn’t actually done much (if anything) about the audio side. This bothered me. Now I know that one person’s problems don’t affect all users, but it does seem to be generally acknowledged that this is a big “hole” in Logic.

 

Last week I attended a fantastic four day “Music for the Media” course. The chap that run the course was a Digital Performer user but knew all the other DAWs extremely well. I must emphasize that he was not trying to make any of us use any particular DAW, he was teaching Media composition.

 

As he went through the course, he would often use his DAW to demonstrate some aspect of the course. He would also say which other DAWs could or couldn’t do what he was showing us and what a possible workaround might be. Well, I forget how many times he said either “and you can’t do this in Logic” or “this takes longer to do in Logic”. Unfortunately I can’t remember all the examples but one of them was in-place use of a plug-in effect (such as delay) directly on an audio region. I know you CAN do it in a roundabout way in Logic, but there are a lot of steps involved as well as bouncing and so on, but in DP it was very, very quick. As I remember, it’s pretty quick in Cubase.

 

And this is my point: I’m NOT saying that DP is better than Logic, because I’m sure that the Logic old-guard could reel off a number of features that Logic has and DP doesn’t have. But I am saying that DP seems a lot easier to use, so does Cubase for the most part, Logic seems to be stuck.

 

I strongly feel that Apple are offering no support to either the amateur or professional users of Logic. This “we will not ever talk about upcoming Logic features / bug fixes” attitude stinks. I don’t care if that’s how Apple have always been. It’s simply not a helpful attitude. Other companies have no problems talking to their users AND being responsive to them.

 

I have to say that I’ve seen no evidence of responsiveness from the Apple about Logic. Six months since Logic 8 release and still only one minor update. Yes I know I didn’t have to change to Logic 8 – but then again, why not? Why can’t I assume that Logic would be maintained professionally?

 

Apple’s lack of communication is ALMOST as bad as Steinberg’s. The only difference is that Apple have never said anything about what will happen to Logic, therefore have never promised anything, and therefore can’t be accused of lying / letting us down. Steinberg have made promises and then didn’t deliver.

 

The only feeling I am left with is that the guys at Apple don’t know what the future of Logic is. That worries me. After all, Apple could ditch Logic tomorrow and still sell lots of Macs that are used in other creative industries.

 

Ho hum – just my point of view.

 

All the best

[dkgross]

you make good points...All DAW's have the good and bad points.

 

One of my biggest gripes about Logic is the lack of a destructive/AudioSuite type of processing function on a region within the Arrange window.

 

and yeh...6 months is a LONG time to wait for an update...

[Logic Pro]

well for what it is Pro means adaptable to a professional environment and logic does well with Pro Tools Hardware as well as Apogee.

 

Now if you are referring to audio editing abilities your all right, Apple neglected some functions to ping that story, the program all ready is nothing like Pro Tools which was created to fallow up the tape editing theory into a virtual non linear world so if Apple realizes how well this great music production program will do in the all around audio world rather then supporting the there market strategy to get new mac users maybe we would be happy, but guess what, it will not sell computers and that is where they make there bread so we lost.

[simonphoenix]

And as I have stated earlier, we are one of the few markets that spends copious amounts of money on their more expensive machines.

 

From a marketing standpoint, it would be extremely wise for Apple to look after the pro-audio community.

 

Nothing ever is perfect, but Logic would be in a very strong, competitive, dominating position, if they just nailed the few essentials. And there's nothing hard in that.