Stevo Da Devo Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Hello all. My question is regarding the dB boost achieved from funning a signal through logic's (and more than likely any other) distortion. What I've done is run a signal through the 'distortion' plugin in logic, with the drive at 0dB, the tone at 20 000Hz and my output at 0dB. I've noticed that although this doesn't register a noticeable change in the meter dB levels in logic, it seems to boost the actual level up approx. 5dB. It does alter the timbre, depending on the initial sound. What I'm aiming to do is boost the over all level of a track, without driving it into the red. I'm presently running the afore mentioned parameters on a kick, and although the timbre has changed, the perceived volume goes through the roof, and I'm sure it will cut through to mix much more. It all seems to easy, and I'm left wondering what the catch is (aside from timbral changes) I was hoping someone might be able to shed some light on why this happens, and if I can trust it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Back in Logic 5, for a long time I was using the Overdrive plug-in set to disto = 0 dB, cutoff = 20K, gain = 0. I was hearing the result as a gentle compression and a slight increase in apparent level. I loved the sound it was producing. Then later, probably when Logic 7 came out, I realized that the plug-in was no longer reacting like that. Those settings didn't change my sound at all. I have not used the Overdrive plug-in in that way since. Never tried it with the distortion plug-in. Anyway to answer your question: don't ask anyone's advice: trust your ears! If it sounds good, it's good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Da Devo Posted March 18, 2008 Author Share Posted March 18, 2008 Thanks for the reply! Perhaps I should add more info... I'm writing dance floor tunes (and am aiming for as loud an overall mix as possible), and my understanding is that if the mix exceed a set dB level on a club system the limiter (compressor?? dunno which one it is) pulls the over all level of the tune down, to protect itself. I don't know if any of that sounds right, but this is my understanding of how club systems work. With that in mind I don't want to boost the level of my channels (with dist. as described above) thinking that all is well, and then loose volume on a club system because logic wasn't giving me the accurate levels. I understand that the musical decision rest on my shoulders, but what I'm querying is whether or not there is a potential bug in logic, or if the distortion plugin is performing a compression/eq affect which gives the impression of increased dB without actual amplification. I hope that you can follow what I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vm1971 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Thanks for the reply! Perhaps I should add more info... I'm writing dance floor tunes (and am aiming for as loud an overall mix as possible), and my understanding is that if the mix exceed a set dB level on a club system the limiter (compressor?? dunno which one it is) pulls the over all level of the tune down, to protect itself. I don't know if any of that sounds right, but this is my understanding of how club systems work. With that in mind I don't want to boost the level of my channels (with dist. as described above) thinking that all is well, and then loose volume on a club system because logic wasn't giving me the accurate levels. I understand that the musical decision rest on my shoulders, but what I'm querying is whether or not there is a potential bug in logic, or if the distortion plugin is performing a compression/eq affect which gives the impression of increased dB without actual amplification. I hope that you can follow what I'm saying. well, im not sure if this is whatcah mean.... but.... i was doing some stuff with CamelCrusher ... to a drum kit AND a synth bass tone..... great tone, crushing sound.... lots of volume..,.. yet my meters were very very "calm",.... it was like, ... perceived LOUDNESS from the plug but the meter was tamed. is it so??? if so, hoorah. i wanted a loud, raw sound for this track without pinning it. seems like it happened. so... is it really "OK" technically? cause my ears say YES.... similar? V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 so... is it really "OK" technically? cause my ears say YES.... Yes. Your meters are reading the peak signal and it's possible to have signals peak very hot yet still sound quiet. Conversely, try using a good maximizer plug and you'll see that you can get things much louder but still keep the meters reading the same levels. Don't ever judge your mix, while mixing, by looking at level meters. They are not true indicators of "loudness" and were never intended to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vm1971 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 so... is it really "OK" technically? cause my ears say YES.... Yes. Your meters are reading the peak signal and it's possible to have signals peak very hot yet still sound quiet. Conversely, try using a good maximizer plug and you'll see that you can get things much louder but still keep the meters reading the same levels. Don't ever judge your mix, while mixing, by looking at level meters. They are not true indicators of "loudness" and were never intended to be. THANSKS!!!!!!!!! very cool. V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vm1971 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 so... is it really "OK" technically? cause my ears say YES.... Yes. Your meters are reading the peak signal and it's possible to have signals peak very hot yet still sound quiet. Conversely, try using a good maximizer plug and you'll see that you can get things much louder but still keep the meters reading the same levels. Don't ever judge your mix, while mixing, by looking at level meters. They are not true indicators of "loudness" and were never intended to be. any recommendations on maximizer plugs, 3rd party, etc? thansk for the reply! V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Da Devo Posted March 19, 2008 Author Share Posted March 19, 2008 well, im not sure if this is whatcah mean.... but.... i was doing some stuff with CamelCrusher ... to a drum kit AND a synth bass tone..... great tone, crushing sound.... lots of volume..,.. yet my meters were very very "calm",.... it was like, ... perceived LOUDNESS from the plug but the meter was tamed. is it so??? if so, hoorah. i wanted a loud, raw sound for this track without pinning it. seems like it happened. so... is it really "OK" technically? cause my ears say YES.... similar? V Yeah, sounds like its the same thang gwan down. I ask the same thing; is it technically correct? I can only presume so until I find out more I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Da Devo Posted March 19, 2008 Author Share Posted March 19, 2008 so... is it really "OK" technically? cause my ears say YES.... Yes. Your meters are reading the peak signal and it's possible to have signals peak very hot yet still sound quiet. Conversely, try using a good maximizer plug and you'll see that you can get things much louder but still keep the meters reading the same levels. Don't ever judge your mix, while mixing, by looking at level meters. They are not true indicators of "loudness" and were never intended to be. Cheers. I've experienced quiet signals running hot, and vice versa. Am familiar with this. Are you saying that the level meters within logic are totally accurate? If not can you recommend any third party plugins that are? I'm only using my meters to gauge how far I can push the mix. As far as volume levels are concerned I can't see how you could mix only using meters... wouldn't that negate ears?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 any recommendations on maximizer plugs, 3rd party, etc? These things come in far too many flavors for me to make any recommendation. All depends on what kind of sound you're trying to achieve, genre, etc. Try some demos out. Most would agree that the Waves L2 is a decent "generic" maximizer, but there are many others now with various bells and whistles. Are you saying that the level meters within logic are totally accurate? If not can you recommend any third party plugins that are? I'm saying that the channelstrip meters in Logic are accurate enough to be adequate for what we need them for within Logic's mixing environment. Metering and measuring in the audio world is an enormous subject. There are as many varieties of meters as there are people with different opinions on how we should be measuring things. Developing a meter that accurately reflects loudness as perceived by humans is something that has eluded engineers for about a century now. Most of the generic metering we use from day to day is based on mountains of research from Bell Labs with subsequent additions from organizations such as the ASA, AES, SMPTE, EBU, among many others. All for the purposes of having a standardization of special purpose metering systems. All with their own peculiarities of bandwidth, weighting, ballistics, integration, the list goes on . . . So the bottom line is that it's impossible to ask any question about metering without having to be incredibly specific. But suffice it to say that in the context of mixing, the meters we use in Logic and other workstation apps do a fine job of telling us two very important things; whether the signal is too high or too low to be of proper use to the audio engine. That is the full extent of their usefulness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Da Devo Posted March 19, 2008 Author Share Posted March 19, 2008 Thanks for the info. I suppose this sort of this is all about being an audio engineer. I'll let trial and error be my guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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