notating polyrhythms/polymeters?

[nikkik]

Hi!

Some of the music I write (mostly prog rock-ish, slight prog metal here n there as well) is polyrhythmic, more frequently polymetric. For instance, I have a song that has drums and bass (the bass will hold main accents on percussives most of the time, but wil roam out a bit with guitar here and there) doing various numbers of measures of 8/8, 7/8, 6/8, and 10/8, while a Hammond part runs along in 4/4, and the vocals and guitar trade bits in combinations and variations of those. Granted, an extreme case. To write the drum sin 4/4 would be awkward, and to write the Hammond parts in anything but 4/4 would be..well, wrong.

 

So... how would you guys go about notating this in an app? Or am I stuck transcribing out each part, then play cut n paste in Photoshop? Or..eeek... pen and paper only for this type of self-indulgent Zappa meets Brubeck fest? I have Logic and Sibelius to use (ok, I own DP5 and Cubase 4 as well, but figure they fall short-er).

 

Out of 10 songs comprising about 75 minutes of music, at the very least, polymeter between instruments (including voice- one of the most amazing instruments) occurs in 6 in a way that truly deserves unique notating in transcription.

[Bow Rekk]

I would have thought you would generally leave the time signature as simple as possible to make counting easier and then screw the drummer over .

I played Messiaen's Turangalila symphony the other week and throughout there were sections where the time signature was constant, say, 4/8 and every 2 or 3 bars the same thing would come back but offset by a semiquaver. I can't remember if this was because the instruments with a more significant part were playing in 4/8 or if he just thought 17/16 would be ridiculous, I was too busy counting...

 

Anyway, I would put the harder part to play/read in its time signature and make everything else follow that. I have been in a couple of prog metal bands and a death indie band also with lots of polyrhythms, although I played the guitar I usually thought of it as being in the time signature of whatever the drummer was playing in but that could have been because he usually had the more complicated part...

[Draw the Moral]

I would say write the time sig's in the drums and bass guitar parts. Since they are all in "something"/8 then it shouldn't be too hard for the organ part. Just follow the quarter notes no matter what. But for the drums and bass, they would need to have the odd time.

 

Whenever you are doing a polyrhythm, and you are the instrument in the normal time, then you just ignore everything but beats. No accents, no time sig's...just beats. It's like a really complicated metronome for your 4/4.

[nikkik]

Hi!

I have been notating to the most prominent so far. I just wish I could notate polymetric passages, though the offset might look weird or whatever. I have seen hand written 'scrips of works like this before and thought it was cool to have it written out...erm.. "properly."

 

Funny thing is, I have not ever really thought about how I reference doing this in a band context. IOW, how do I keep relative time? I guess I just got lucky and worked with others that could do it without really thinking too much. Weird how it can feel natural to play like that... My first band had a drummer that would do polyrhythms, and then we would try polymeters along with that, ala Zappa. Then I had my Dad introduce me to Dave Brubeck and others, and Brubeck was huge on the polyrhythm thing for himself, and then having the band play off that.

 

In Logic, I have my template set with 3 click tracks by default, and a few different click sound types. This way I can set them to the tme sig I want, even though the app only allows a single meter. Unmute the one I need when I need it, if I find a passage too rough against what is already recorded. Fun!

[Draw the Moral]

That's awesome! I'd love to hear some of this stuff if you have any of it posted.

 

If you love polyrhythms, another great guy to check out (besides the ones you listed) is Antonio Sanchez of the Pat Metheny Group.

 

One of the best drummers that I've ever seen.

[Orsanct]

While it's not simple, you can create polymeters in Sibelius (and, I presume, in Finale?). I know your example is more complicated but by way of illustration. . .

 

Let's say you wanted 7/4 bar in one part and two 7/8s in another part. You can (in this case):

 

1. Create a 7/4 time signature

2. For the second staff, make the time signature "invisible".

3. Create a "fake" 7/8 time signature in second staff. (There's a pre-made text style for this.)

4. Add a fake barline to the middle of staff no. 2

5. Change the beaming of the second staff so it fits the 7/8 appearance.

 

 

By using various fake time signatures, invisible time signatures and combinations of invisible & fake barlines, you can create polymeters. In some more complicated instances, I've had to make the entire song one bar long and then add all the "fake" elements. When you're using lots of different meters simultaneously, it's almost impossible to get the line and page changes to work out the same, which necessitates splitting up bars.

 

 

To be sure, this is a big pain but still, I think this is somewhat easier than using Photoshop. Plus, this should allow for part extraction albeit with some tweaking.

 

I suggest trying this out on the first few bars of your song and evaluating if you think it will work for your purposes.

 

Cheers!

[Orsanct]

nikkik,

 

Here's a little something I put together for my students. It's from "In Evening's Stillness" by Joseph Schwantner. I did this in Sibelius to show some implied polymeters in the piece.

 

(This was a hastily put-together handout. It is possible to clean up the collisions better than I did here.)

polymeter.tif

[Orsanct]

Here are three alternatives to writing out actual polymeters:

 

1. Bracket the rhythmic groupings (or at least the first few) to show the implied meters. (Leonard Bernstein did this quite nicely in his "Prelude, Fugue and Riffs".

 

2. Place an accent (or some other symbol) on the "downbeat" of each implied bar.

 

3. Re-beam 8ths, 16ths and 32nds to show the implied groupings. (Including across barlines, if possible.)

[Orsanct]

I played Messiaen's Turangalila symphony the other week and throughout there were sections where the time signature was constant, say, 4/8 and every 2 or 3 bars the same thing would come back but offset by a semiquaver. I can't remember if this was because the instruments with a more significant part were playing in 4/8 or if he just thought 17/16 would be ridiculous, I was too busy counting...

 

Yeah, this is pretty typical for Messiaen in his large ensemble writing. He did, indeed, figure that the orchestra would have problems with those 17/16 bars. In his solo and chamber works, though, he had no such concerns. If you have ever have a chance to read his "The Technique of My Musical Language", he goes into some detail about the problems of rhythmic notation.

 

By the way, I remember hearing a terrific performance of Turangalila with the the Cleveland Orchestra quite a few years back. They even brought in Yvonne Loriod to play the Ondes Martenot part. Rockin'!

 

I still think the most bizarrely-notated percussion part is the woodblock in Stravinsky's "Agon": a simple 2 quavers followed by 2 crotchets over and over, but over a minefield of changing meters. Sounds easy -- looks hellish!

[nikkik]

Hi!

Thank you so much for all that!

The .tif did not show? Maybe frefox issue? I will try Safari in a few..

 

I am so new to transcribing. I am the typical "rock n roll" musician that learns enough to play. But, I have read alot of theory books, and discussed things with others who have gone to school(s), and picked up what I thought was enough. But, of course, now I wish I had proper schooling. Sibelius is my "foot in the door" for transcribing. It is a HUGE hill I am headed up, but most is pretty straight forward. I just happened to be surrounded by jazz from my Dad, and prog rock from my friends growing up, with doses of classical from my Dad and his Mom. What I hear in my head just seems to be simple, but as soon as I start transcribing or thinking about it, I discover I have created something more complicated than..well, than alot fo popular music. Then I write a song that has one time sig, one tempo, and is pretty standard, but the breakdown goes all crazy...lol!

 

I wish I could take a Sibelius class... would be so nice to be able to sketch all this out properly. Oh- soon as I find a singer and get drums written, recording begins! Soon as I even have rough mixes, they will hit my myspace

[nikkik]

Orsanct- saw the image- PERFECT!!! EXACTLY what I was talking about.

 

I truly am sorry to babble on and on about this, but it really has sat in my mind and bugged me to no end. I can see polyrhythms getting notated according to a prevalent sig, and grouping properly. But for polymeter, as much as many (most?) would prefer- or expect?- a single time sig and then group/tie the other time sig instrument parts to imply "feel" and timing, I really wanted to show things exactly as they are played. Funny thing is, everything I have written so far seems to converge after 12 bars or so..nothing that goes like 60 bars or something with no common bar end/start occurring.

 

I always thought math was beautiful and a true form of art when I was in school (I know- odd for a girl). When I saw that image you made with Sibelius... ahh, that is it. When it looks like that, yet flows and a "common listener" is not really aware of the oddness.... mmmmm....

 

Now I just need to hone the transcribing skills, and get to know Sibelius...

[fader8]

I wish I could take a Sibelius class...

 

Here ya go Nikki! Online no less.

 

http://www.berkleemusic.com/school/course?course%5fitem%5fid=8117125&program=songwriting&usca%5fp=t

[nikkik]

Whoa! $700!!

I am watching some of the ver 4 vids on the Sibelius site. I think I will grab the $20 book I found, "Sibelius: A Comprehensive Guide To Sibelius Music Notation Software." It is so embarrassing to be this old, and have been in the music industry for over 25 years, yet not have a solid foundation in transcription and such. I can get by, and can communicate the basics, but transcribing, say, 16 bars of guitar solo would take me several hours most likely, getting the note values, rests, etc. all nicely notated, and properly. (big sigh) I can TAB in minutes, and communicate verbally, and even read (slowly...no sight reading while playing here ), so I have that plus the app to muddle thru.

 

Just not enough time in one lifetime....

[Orsanct]

But for polymeter, as much as many (most?) would prefer- or expect?- a single time sig and then group/tie the other time sig instrument parts to imply "feel" and timing, I really wanted to show things exactly as they are played.

 

I understand perfectly! This business of writing everything in one time signature is more for the sake of making things coming together quickly -- than for indicating the true "feel" of the music.

 

There's still one more notational option I've not mentioned. (But it is even more work than the example posted.) Basically, it works like this. Make two staves for each part. Notate one in the general meter of the piece, perhaps using accents, cross beams, etc. Then, notate another staff using the tricks I demonstrated above. Lastly, when you extract the parts, include both versions on each part. Then, players can have the security of the simpler version AND the "feel" of the second one.

 

As you rehearse, you can go back and forth as needed to make sure the player has the correct feel as well is maintaining the more regular pulse of the "basic" beat. I mention this because many players, when they play in irregular or mixed meters, tend to compress (that is, slightly rush) the long beats -- which can create havoc at the "macro" beat level. Going back and forth can sometimes make everything really sparkle, timewise!

 

Clear as mud?

[Orsanct]

nikki,

 

This fellow is in the PDX area and does lots of workshops. I've heard good things about him and have met him at the various regional music conferences. I don't know how advanced his classes are but, might it be worth a call. . .

 

http://www.midiworkshop.com/music.htm

[nikkik]

Wow!

Thx for all that!

 

I have tabbed out guitar and bass parts for myself before, and for bandmates when writing stuff. Nothing fancy, usually just a scribble. Get into the rehearsal area, boombox or 4-track cassette on, and then no real need to go further. I have almost always learned by ear, except for some quick insights from magazines like "Guitar For The Practicing Musician" and a few piano/voice/tab books, like for Rush and Yes (a fav!). But, after seeing full transcriptions being done, and then seeing Dream Theater oversee and aid in the transcriptions of their material, even more so with uber-prodigy Jordan Rudess being there, the desire to do the same with what I am writing now became this near obsession for me. Even if I get it all sussed out, and then print one copy, hole punch it and stick it on my shelf, at least I did it, and have something to show. Highest hope would be having some random person hear my music, and wonder what the transcription would look like, and when they ask, being able to give them a link to a nice PDF of all the songs.

 

thx again!

[fader8]

Whoa! $700!!

 

Nikki,

Have you priced tuition recently? That's a bargain for a 12 week 3 credit college course! Looking at the syllabus, it appears to be comprehensive too. I think you're worth it!

[clark]

I would have thought you would generally leave the time signature as simple as possible to make counting easier and then screw the drummer over .

I played Messiaen's Turangalila symphony the other week and throughout there were sections where the time signature was constant, say, 4/8 and every 2 or 3 bars the same thing would come back but offset by a semiquaver. I can't remember if this was because the instruments with a more significant part were playing in 4/8 or if he just thought 17/16 would be ridiculous, I was too busy counting...

 

Anyway, I would put the harder part to play/read in its time signature and make everything else follow that. I have been in a couple of prog metal bands and a death indie band also with lots of polyrhythms, although I played the guitar I usually thought of it as being in the time signature of whatever the drummer was playing in but that could have been because he usually had the more complicated part...

 

Turangalila? AWESOME!!!!....not too many peeps even know about that one...BRUTAL!!! As a drummer myself, I'd actually agree with you in terms of make it simple+ screw the drummer....at least in certain situations. Of course, in the case that a discernible difference in feel wold be actually realized by players/ensemble, that should always take precedence, even vs. execution, IMHO. I'm always more willing to listen to someone who is trying to say something vs. anyone who is attempting to avoid an error. Other than that....we are, for better or worse, likely more favorably equipped to deal with ridiculous signatures, etc., and we generally would prefer that when the **** hits the fan, let us do whatever we can to minimize the damage!

[clark]

Here are three alternatives to writing out actual polymeters:

 

1. Bracket the rhythmic groupings (or at least the first few) to show the implied meters. (Leonard Bernstein did this quite nicely in his "Prelude, Fugue and Riffs".

 

2. Place an accent (or some other symbol) on the "downbeat" of each implied bar.

 

3. Re-beam 8ths, 16ths and 32nds to show the implied groupings. (Including across barlines, if possible.)

 

 

OR.......and I seriously don't intend to be demeaning at all as I suggest this, but:

 

A. Play for a competent conductor who can explain how they perceive them to be interpreted.

 

and in addition, or instead of "A".......

 

B. Study the piece and performances of such and/or ask others who have performed them for their opinions/interpretations.

[ski]

Hi Orsanct!

 

Question about your chart... you said you prepared that yourself, so I'm wondering what the original score looks like -- is it arranged similarly, with the piano part motoring along on its own set of time signatures? Or were all parts written along an 8th note pulse and you extrapolated the implied rhythms in (mostly) the 1/4 note pulse?

 

-=sKi=-

[Orsanct]

Hi Orsanct!

 

Question about your chart... you said you prepared that yourself, so I'm wondering what the original score looks like -- is it arranged similarly, with the piano part motoring along on its own set of time signatures? Or were all parts written along an 8th note pulse and you extrapolated the implied rhythms in (mostly) the 1/4 note pulse?

 

-=sKi=-

Hey ski:

 

The original was set up the same as the piano part: a repeating 4-bar metric pattern of 5/8, 6/8, 5/8, 7/8. The brass parts I then re-notated employed dotted notes, ties and such within that framework. I created this notation for my students so -- in rehearsal -- they could better feel the implied meters. It's been my experience that performers play on-the-beat stresses differently than they do syncopations. For this, I wanted the long note part to create a sense of an out-of-time, gentle chorale against the ever-driving motor rhythm. The original notation, however, invited a very syncopated manner of playing which I found utterly out of character with that particular "layer."

 

Does that make any sense?

[ski]

Yes, it makes sense, and thanks so much for the detailed explanation.

 

-=sKi=-