Writing for Trombone (Trombone E/F attachments)

[ski]

According to the orchestration books, the low note on tenor trombone is E (excluding pedal tones). But if the trombone is equipped with an F (or E) attachment, you can get the C below that ("great C", or in Logic-speak, C1).

 

The score I'm working on requires the tenor trombones to play C1 regularly. (Yes, I have a bass trombone in the score, but I'd prefer not to get too wild 'n' whacky and write a score for 3 bass trombones!)

 

Question: is it regular fare for professional trombonists to have F or E attachments on their instruments? Or would I have to specify this in my score (i.e, request players with specialty instruments)?

 

Cheers!

 

Ski

[Orsanct]

Hey ski,

 

While the "F" attachment will allow the tenor trombone to extend its range, it can still be pretty stuffy in that sub-low-E register. E-flats and Ds are pretty good but some horns lose some of their "oomph" at D-flat and below. The real advantage of the attachment is that it provides some alternate slide positions and therefore, a bit more mobility on the instrument. To be sure, they should be able to play low Cs, but they're just not as resonant or capable of projecting like a true bass bone, which enjoys a larger bore size and usually a double trigger.

 

What kind of color/effect are you going for here, ski? Can you tell me a bit more about the context of the low "C"s?

 

Regarding the 1st and 2nd players: there's an excellent chance that they'll have F attachments, but it's not absolutely guaranteed. Usually those parts will not go below "E", save some pedal tones.

 

What, by the way, is the full instrumentation available to you?

 

 

P.S. Just got back from Alaska where I hung out with a guy who plays contrabass trombone. Very cool axe, methinks!

[ski]

Orsanct, thanks so much for your reply and information!

 

The context is a piano piece which I'm transcribing for orchestra. So of course the challenge becomes working 7+ octaves into a range of instruments which don't come close to that. Some of the left hand parts spread between low A and C2. I'm already requiring 6 basses with C attachments, where C is tuned down to low B (scordatura). I'm even considering writing an ossia part for contrabass clarinet because I want that low, static tone for certain parts. Contrabass bassoon just isn't a sound I'm in love with, but I'm using it all the same.

 

I'd considered specifying contrabass trombone, but I thought the better of it, as it's my understanding (which could be wrong) that it's not commonly available instrument.

 

So in short, the weight in the low end needs to be considerable at times, and after spreading/doubling the lowest octaves over contra bassoon, bass trombone, tuba, and string basses, I'm still in need of low voices between C1 and C2. That's where the trombones come in.

 

I'd be happy just to have those pitches at least represented. I don't really want to have the basses play divisi, and the celli are working overtime as it is.

 

BTW, here's the instrumentation:

 

1 piccolo, 2 flute (one doubles on picc), 2 oboe, 1 e.horn, 2 clarinets, 1 bass clarinet (ossia contra), 2 bassoon, 1 contrabassoon, 4 horns, 3 trumpets, 3 trombones, 1 bass trombone, 1 tuba, harp, celesta/piano (a few selected notes as an homage to the original piece), percussion, full strings.

[ski]

I should say, also, per your question, that I don't know what the instrumentation of the orchestra that will perform this is. I only know that I'm writing what I'm hearing, and I'll make adjustments to the score to accommodate the orchestra if need be.

[Orsanct]

That's a great instrumentation! And, three trombones PLUS bass trombone and tuba? Yummy!

 

I like your idea of using a contra clarinet as well. I think that's a much underutilized instrument.

 

I'm intrigued about the colors you're after. If you ever want a second set of eyes to take a look at any of the score pages, I'd be happy to share an observation or two. Orchestration is of course a very subjective art form. Just the same, there are a few tried and true formulations for most situations, as well as many adventurous possibilities -- particularly when one considers various extended techniques as well as a rich complement of percussion.

 

As for other bass voice possibilities, don't forget about the extreme low range of the horns. They're not very agile down there but it's an amazing, almost terrifying, color. (See 1st mvmt of Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony for a classic example.) For more rhythmic stuff or long sustained notes, consider the extended-range marimba -- or even a bass marimba. It can produce very rich and resonant sounds. For more ethereal bass sounds, I'm also quite fond of the marimba played with a contrabass bow. Again, not very agile or good for sustained notes, but a great color for longish notes separated by short silences. (Although, you can overcome some of that if you use two players on the same instrument — they can alternate notes as long as you don't have them tripping over each other.)

 

If you're doing any pedal points, you also have timpani, tam-tam and bass drum to add some depth to the sound. The addition of a low-pitched concert bass drum can give the illusion of an lower octave doubling to many bass instruments.

 

BTW, you're right about contrabass trombones. They are definitely a rarity.

[ski]

Orsanct,

 

Another really great, informative reply, thank you! I appreciate your offer to lend a second set of eyes too.

 

Funny you should mention bass marimba/marimba. I'm using those as well. I'm not familiar with the extended-range marimba tho. I'll google it! And the idea of bowed marimba sounds intriguing. I can almost imagine the sound, would have to hear an example. However, I know the sound of bowed vibes, and I considered using them for a while. I decided against it because I wanted to keep my color palette under control, so I'm using string harmonics instead.

 

Horns: yes, I'm using them for low notes as well. I guess my initial question on trombones hints at the fact that I'd like to have the trombone sound rather than horn in these low passages. Which makes me wonder... in your experience, do tenor trombone players ever double on bass trombone?

 

P.S. Just got back from Alaska where I hung out with a guy who plays contrabass trombone. Very cool axe, methinks!

 

How cool! Got pics?

[Orsanct]

Funny you should mention bass marimba/marimba. I'm using those as well. I'm not familiar with the extended-range marimba tho. I'll google it!

 

I think both the 5 octave and 5.5 octave models have an excellent low register.

 

 

And the idea of bowed marimba sounds intriguing. I can almost imagine the sound, would have to hear an example.

 

The micing is a bit too close to really get the effect but, as you'll hear, there is a similarity to bowed vibes. The low octaves can sound a lot cooler than these particular examples.

 

http://www.matthewjanszen.com/PSEBowedMarimba.htm

 

 

Which makes me wonder... in your experience, do tenor trombone players ever double on bass trombone?

 

Usually not. Bass trombone is a rather specialized instrument. If you're recording with buddies, or you have your own ensemble, it's sometimes possible to talk someone into doubling. With union players or most professionals however, you can pretty much forget it. Even if you talked them into it, you'd still probably have to pay doubler fees.

 

P.S. Just got back from Alaska where I hung out with a guy who plays contrabass trombone. Very cool axe, methinks!

 

How cool! Got pics?

Darn. Didn't think of that. The only piece I've ever conducted with it is Varese's "Integrales." (I love that crazy old coot!) 8)

[ski]

Again, thanks for a great reply, and also for the link to that bowed marimba sound. I think I like bowed marimba better than bowed vibes for the sound I was hearing too -- very much like string harmonics with that extra wine-glass effect. The xylo was pretty close as well.

[JJP]

Regarding the bass marimba and low end of the 5-octave, be careful writing for these if they are not mic'd or recorded separately. They do not project well when other instruments are playing. When played loudly, you can really lose the fundamental pitch and just get overtones. Also, bowed vibes project much better than bowed marimba, so keep that in mind.

 

If you have a tuba to work with, why make the tenor trombones play so low? Try shifting your voicing around and utilize that tuba and bass trombone instead of forcing the tenors to play so low. Also, if you want power, be sure to double the note up the octave (maybe in the tenor tbns if you free them up).

 

Just FYI, I work as an orchestrator, and one of the biggest problems I see is people trying to write everything too low in assumption that it gives them more power. When you have lots of instruments mucking around in the bottom end of their range, things tend to get muddy and don't project well. Usually if you find yourself having to voice something in the bottom end of of several instruments' ranges, it's better to look for an alternate solution. Shifting octaves is a perfectly acceptable technique if it results in a good orchestration.

 

For example: I had one composer who kept insisting on writing everything in the very low end of the brass instruments. I finally got fed up and re-voiced things so that the instruments were all playing in ranges that projected well. At the recording session, that section suddenly rang out with a boldness and clarity he had never been able to achieve before. The composer was astounded!

 

Unfortunately, rather than pay close attention to what was done, on his next project he just wrote the same way and told me to "do your thing and fix anything that doesn't look right." I don't work for that guy anymore.

[ski]

Thank you JJP. More kernels of knowledge, technique and experience. Much appreciated!

[Orsanct]

Great comments JJP. Thanks for chiming in. A few follow-up comments. . .

 

RE Bass Marimba:

 

JJP is spot on about the volume issue. When struck too hard (or with too hard a mallet), you'll hear just about everything but the fundamental. I think I was assuming — perhaps incorrectly — that this would be done in a studio, allowing for "artificial" balances and colors. If this is for a live acoustic performance, I would reconsider several of my suggestions. Also for the bass marimba, make sure the player uses very soft, "poofy" mallets (or as I like to call them, "gerbils on a stick"). It won't be loud but it'll be deliciously resonant. Played well, it can create a barely audible low register rumble that's hard to place. (A friend of mine once played a gig with composer Hans Werner Henze, and Henze requested that the marimba sound like "cats' paws". )

 

RE Low Brass:

 

If you are concerned that the tuba will have to break the line too much (for breaths), I was thinking you might consider "trading" one of the tenor trombones for a second tuba. Not only would this permit stagger (choral) breathing but could give you some extra energy when you really want it. Conceivably, one of the tubists (if you write the part high enough) could also play on tenor tuba/euphonium which would give you an instrument that could be used as (1) an octave reinforcement of the bass tuba, (2) an extra "trombone" or (3) a "fifth horn". It can even join the bassoons to make a little quartet of sorts.

 

RE Lots of Low Register Instruments:

 

I was tempted to mention something similar to JJPs comments but, of course, I have no idea what kind of effect you're after. I didn't know if you wanted clear lines, pedal points — or cataclysmic low register yawps from the bottom of the orchestra!

 

One of the things I always stress is the fact that most wind and brass instruments have a lot of energy in their upper partials — unlike strings, whose harmonics are packed more tightly towards the fundamental. The consequence of this is that bunched up low winds tend to create a lot of "cross talk" in the middle registers of the orchestra, and that can create a very muddy sound. (It can also make it harder for other instruments in the alto/tenor region to project clearly.) On the other hand, Stravinsky used this scrunched-up low register writing with considerable success!

 

RE Transcription of Your Piano Piece

 

I'm curious, how "pianistic" would you say the original piece is? I mean, does it make use of all those standard techniques (e.g. fast arpeggios, multi-octave leaps) found in highly idiomatic piano writing? Or is it more a work that could have been composed for various media? I ask because I'm always fascinated with how composers/orchestrators "translate" pianistic techniques into the orchestra. (I suppose one of the classics in this regard is Ravel's own orchestration of his "Le Tombeau de Couperin".)

 

Unfortunately, rather than pay close attention to what was done, on his next project he just wrote the same way and told me to "do your thing and fix anything that doesn't look right."

Arrgh! Wait, tell me again, JJP: were you doing orchestrations for him? Or preparing his taxes?

[JJP]

RE Low Brass:

 

If you are concerned that the tuba will have to break the line too much (for breaths), I was thinking you might consider "trading" one of the tenor trombones for a second tuba. Not only would this permit stagger (choral) breathing but could give you some extra energy when you really want it. Conceivably, one of the tubists (if you write the part high enough) could also play on tenor tuba/euphonium which would give you an instrument that could be used as (1) an octave reinforcement of the bass tuba, (2) an extra "trombone" or (3) a "fifth horn". It can even join the bassoons to make a little quartet of sorts.

 

Oooh! Gotta second this! Great ideas. Tenor tuba is an often forgotten instrument. Everybody just thinks of tuba as this low whale fart kind of sound. It can actually be very lyrical in its higher registers. I think more so than a trombone in its lowest register.

 

Orsanct, your comments about low register instruments are also spot on! Ski, this may seem a little abstract in text, but if you check out the scores he mentions while listening to recordings, you'll get the idea.

 

Unfortunately, rather than pay close attention to what was done, on his next project he just wrote the same way and told me to "do your thing and fix anything that doesn't look right."

Arrgh! Wait, tell me again, JJP: were you doing orchestrations for him? Or preparing his taxes?

 

Haha! It started to feel like I was doing his taxes! It amazes me how some jerk can take all the pleasure out of something like music.

[ski]

Hi Orsanct,

 

For various reasons I need to keep knowledge of the actual piece I'm orchestration mum for the moment. Sorry to be cryptic. Hopefully soon I won't have to be.

 

As far as how pianistic it is, well, let's just say that it's one of the most difficult piano pieces I've ever played. The writing is both pianistic and not (some of the techniques called for are stupendously difficult, if not impossible). And then there are those sections that seem more like piano reductions of an orchestration. Or piano renditions of what amount to a melodic rhythm section -- lots of clusters. BTW, this transcription is intended for live performance. Sure, I'd love to get a studio recording but... we'll see what happens.

 

I love the idea of the tubist (why do I think of river rafting as I write that?) doubling on euphonium. I wouldn't have thought of that on my own, for sure. I'll definitely mull that one over.

 

Or (he says, getting giddy as the night wears on), maybe I could create a new effect by asking the tubist to use the euphonium as a mute!

 

So again, thanks to you both for sharing your insights.

 

Cheers!

 

Ski

[ski]

Orsanct, your comments about low register instruments are also spot on! Ski, this may seem a little abstract in text, but if you check out the scores he mentions while listening to recordings, you'll get the idea.

 

I've made plans to do exactly that. Cheers!

[Orsanct]

Or (he says, getting giddy as the night wears on), maybe I could create a new effect by asking the tubist to use the euphonium as a mute! :

 

Isn't that vaguely cannibalistic?

 

Actually, you just brought me back to one of those "moments". This spring I was conducting Stravinsky's "Symphonies of Wind Instruments. The final section is this solemn chorale dedicated to the memory of Debussy. Right before the final moments, Stravinsky has this wonderful silent bar during which — and I'll NEVER understand this — he has the tubist insert a friggin' mute!

 

Nothing creates a mood of deep reflection like a giant silver cone arcing its way into the upturned mouth of a hungry tuba.

[ski]

Isn't that vaguely cannibalistic?

 

ROFL!

 

Right before the final moments, Stravinsky has this wonderful silent bar during which — and I'll NEVER understand this — he has the tubist insert a friggin' mute!

 

More ROFL! Necessity being the mother of invention and all, such moments give rise to the need for the sunroof tuba mute. Footpedal controlled, unobtrusive. Maybe even remotely controlled via iPhone by the conductor? LOL!

[Orsanct]

DISCLAIMER *

 

. . . make sure the player uses very soft, "poofy" mallets (or as I like to call them, "gerbils on a stick").

 

* No actual gerbils — nor any other furry woodland creatures — were used in the manufacture or testing of these marimba mallets. This includes gerbils, hamsters, shrews, titmice, lemmings, teacup poodles, gophers, prairie dogs, marmots, red squirrels, nutria, kittens, guinea pigs, capybaras, Laotian rock rats, moles, or any cute and cuddly human-animal hybrids that may be developed in the future.

 

Chihuahuas, however, are fair game.

[ski]

Clerk: Sir, can I help you?

Percussionist: Yes, I'm looking for some marimba mallets.

Clerk: Well, you've come to the right place. Our store is called, after all, Mallet Depot.

Percussionist: Yes, I know, thank you.

Clerk: The only place like it in town.

Percussionist: Yes, I'm aware of that. Say, would you have any...

Clerk: Wait, let me guess... You look like the type who'd be playing some... Crumb perhaps? Varese? Cage?

Percussionist: Indeed!

Clerk: Ah! So then you've probably also played some of Molotovski's works?

Percussionist: Molotovski? Never heard of him.

Clerk: Really? I'm surprised. Do you not know any of my work?

Percussionist: You're Molotovski?

Clerk: In the flesh! My publisher assured me I'd be famous by now. Surely you know some of my work.

Percussionist: Such as?

Clerk: Such as?! You've never hear of my opus 22a, "Glock and Roll" for mallet quintet? The glock part sounds particularly eerie when you play them with these sausage-tipped mallets. They're on sale this week...

Percusionist: Sorry, can't say I've heard of it.

Clerk: I'm stunned... What about "I Just Xylophoned To Say I Love You"?

Percussionist: Isn't that a Stevie Wonder song?

Clerk: Yes, it's a transcription for marimba and vibes. I even wrote in these telephone ringing effects to open and close the piece. Very effective and convincing-sounding if played with these uranium-tipped mallets...

Percussionist: I see. Wait, marimba and vibes? No xylophone?

Clerk: Tch! How obvious would that have been? Really now.

Percussionist: Wait a minute, I think I do know one of your pieces!

Clerk: Really?!? Really?!? Which one?

Percussionist: I think it's called "A440".

Clerk: Yes! Yes! That's mine! For bowed crotale? Tuned to A, right? Whaddya know, there is a God!

 

(...not to be continued...)

[Orsanct]

Sir ski, you are a treasure.

 

(Uranium-tipped, vibraphone-piercing mallets? Yikes! Personally, I've tried to adopt more of a "with mallets towards none" approach to life.)

[ski]

Thank you kind sir! But it was your hilarious post that inspired mine. In particular, the Laotian rock rats... ROFL!

 

"with mallets towards none" = :lol:

[leahbasskitten]

i think this "F attachment" is what we used to call a trigger trombone. and its pretty common. or at least in high school band it was. usually the first chairs and most of the second chairs would have one. they were just usually a better quality trombone. this one time, at band camp... yeah i went to band camp. but almost all of us had a trigger trombone. i have mine still somewhere deep in my closet. someone could spend hours, days, even years in there looking for it though.

 

but yeah, i would suspect a pro tromboner to have a F valve.

[leahbasskitten]

oh yeah, also i concur on the statement about any notes below that F, which the trigger is just the 6th position. and anything lower becomes a little pedalton-ish. but then again i wasn't an expert and material i got was usually the other way around and high more like a french horn at times.

 

anyways, thats an ex-tromboner's perspective. now back to you ski! *curtain closes*

[ski]

Thanks for that info Leah.

 

And Orsanct, having re-read your posts I realized I didn't respond to your question about the types of effects. Basically, I need to hear & reinforce those notes that are played in the lowest octave of the piano. They're important notes in the piano part, and carry all the weight. So just imagine an exposed sustained octave in the LH with the bottom note being the lowest A. There are similar exposed octaves at lowest Bb and B. They're marked fff in the original piano part, so they need to carry a lot of weight.

 

So far I have contrabassoon which can reach down to that low A (with an A bell). Other than that, my choices are:

 

• Contrabass clarinet (which I'm a little reluctant to specify because I don't want run the risk of an orchestra's musical director turning down my score because of unorthodox instrumentation). So I'm writing an ossia part for contra.

 

• Tuba low B gets me down there before I have to go into pedaltone-ville.

 

• Scordatura in the basses to tune the E string (C extension) down to low B. But I'm re-thinking that because there's only one moment in the piece where I need to have the basses play that B. I still need low C's, but maybe I can re-approach the three very low B's somehow.

 

And because I'm representing octaves, of course I've got the upper notes represented, and they're easily covered by normal instrument tessituras. It's those extreme low notes that I need to have the weight for.

[Orsanct]

Basically, I need to hear & reinforce those notes that are played in the lowest octave of the piano. They're important notes in the piano part, and carry all the weight. So just imagine an exposed sustained octave in the LH with the bottom note being the lowest A. There are similar exposed octaves at lowest Bb and B. They're marked fff in the original piano part, so they need to carry a lot of weight.

ski,

 

Since I'm dealing with this only in the abstract, please bear with me if (when) I throw out a few ideas that are completely irrelevant to what you are trying to do. If nothing else, I figure anyone observing the conversation might benefit from seeing the many gray areas of orchestration.

 

To my ears, the highest and lowest octave of the acoustic piano contribute far more to color than to pitch. For example, if I play the lowest A by itself, I hear rather little pitch content but I do get a nice low rumble and, if played strongly, a pretty dramatic hammer strike. It is only when I add an octave or two above that I sense that low note as being a pitch, per se.

 

Now, if one accepts this (perhaps flawed) premise, I submit that one can create a similar orchestral effect by allowing instruments to play in their standard low ranges and:

 

(1) adding one or more low-pitched bass drums (with synthetic calf heads).

 

(2) if the hammer noise is desired, consider using the piano and/or other instruments on the attack such as low marimba, low log drum, snap ("Bartok") pizzicato from part of the bass section, col legno in some low strings, rute ("bundle of sticks"), as in Mahler's 2nd Symphony), etc.

 

In defense of point 1 above, I'll cite an interesting choral technique called "fry tones". Let's say you had a choral work that had really low notes for the bass section (like Rachmaninov's Vespers). You don't need a stable full of Russian basses. Instead, if the men can croak a low growly kind of sound, and you have one or two singers that can actually sing the target notes, you'll swear that the whole section is filled with basso profundos!

 

By extension, a bass drum, if low enough, will create a resonant bed that will reinforce low pedal points very nicely. Also, the bass drum's dynamic range is probably the greatest in the whole orchestra: it can whisper and still be heard yet can bury the whole ensemble if needed. I think this instrument is underutilized by many inexperienced orchestrators because they view it only as "unpitched".

[ski]

Another great, highly informative post, thank you Orsanct! No, your points weren't irrelevant at all. All of yours and JJP's suggestions and information are swimming in my brain. I think soon I'll have some synchronized swimming going on too. Thanks again!

[ski]

Orsanct,

 

I just finished listening to the first movement of the Shostakovitch Symphony you recommended. The brass writing isn't quite what I'm doing with my piece, though it's been quite an enjoyable listen all the same. I'd love to see the score and understand better who was playing what in the section where the brass plays low in that contrapuntal section (middle of the piece, after the piano).

 

Cheers!

[ski]

Oh, I forgot to mention that I'm writing for this kind of trombone...

[wip]

great thread!

an inspiration for a once young but still aspiring composer like myself

 

k

[aleos]

awesome stuff Orsanct!

May I ask what the synthetic calf skin does to the drum? Is it giving more/less pitch?

It's a great discussion, and very pertinent to a piece I'm writing as well write now. Although I'm not going as low as Ski.

 

When can we hear the completed piece Ski?

[ski]

That piece is still in progress, would ya believe?! It's been taking a back seat to other projects for years. One day, one day...