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.. what do you think the future will bring?


putte

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.. good day sirs and sirsesses .. :)

 

first off, i hope it´s oki to place this thread here. if not i apologise ..

 

the reason why i´m opening this thread is ´cause i´ve never been that close to ditching Logic before, but due to the lack of alternatives (out of my own view) i´m still with it so far. i started using Logic about 13 years ago, and make my money with it. i use it for filmscoring and for my own bands and projects.

 

from version 4 to version 6 i was a huge fan of Logic, with Logic 7 my scepticism got bigger and since Logic 8 i am nothing but dissapointed. this dissapointment mainly comes from that acquistion of Emagic by Apple. before the buy-out i simply knew that those fine coders of Logic were ambitious and motivated, well, even innovative. but since Apple is big daddy i see Logic on a dead-end street. we waited very very long for Logic 8, and all i see is a very nice looking app with a few new features, still containing the old audio-engine and loads of those old bugs. (i dont mention the price drop and the massive content as i was never fond of Logic´s on-board pluggies or sound-content.)

 

then there´s the absolute zero-communication, and the pace of updates is turtle-like. to me, Apple did a very clever move: they needed something to base Garageband on, and so they bought Emagic. by doing that they also could offer a so-called "pro"-application, and i bet the guys over at Apple are really happy about the whole situation with Logic. the coders themselves, still mainly based in rellingen/germany, might not be as happy, but that´s just my feeling and pure speculation. (well, quite some things i say in this post may be nothing but pure speculation as well.)

 

the problems i have with Logic are rather immense: songs get corrupted after a while (they become very slow, loads of beachball appearances, and sometimes i cant even manage to load up an arrangement at all.) not to mention all these overload-messages, audio-midi sync errors, random crashes, etc.

 

sure, as i have a massive amount of plugins i don´t blame Logic alone for all this trouble, but being rather experienced after all those 13 years i think i know when its a plugin being the culprit, or when Logic is the bad guy.

 

i care for my system, do the maintenance, read the foras, post stuff and asked for answers. still, working with Logic isn´t really fun anymore. and as i said, i need to do my work with it, so i´m not talking about a hobby.

 

while looking for alternatives i realize that this isn´t an easy task at all: Cubase looks like a japanese toybox to me (and the optical aspect means quite a lot to me), Live is nice but not what i really want, ProTools HD is too expensive, and then there is Digital Performer. DP 6 will be out very soon, and what i saw looks really nice. unfortunately there´s no demo-version, and i don´t know anyone using it. i still hope to get my hands on it, and if i am lucky it will be the alternative i am looking for.

 

as much as i´d love to believe that we´ll see that good old care Logic used to get back in the old days, as much i doubt it. i think it´s gone, and beside little updates twice a year we won´t see nothing. again, this is pessimistic speculation, but i can´t help myself in this.

 

so, what´s your view?

 

cheers, and thanks for reading this "rant" .. :)

 

putte

 

[g5 2,0 .. 3gb ram .. osX 10.5.4 .. mh2882]

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I think you are full of sauerkraut in that Logic has been improved beyond the older versions. Simply go back to the machine and software you liked best and use that.

 

In line with your post, I have often wondered what the most brilliant DAW software is. What machines are they being run on? How expensive are they.

 

I mean you can see the Ex$$$$pensive DAW consoles available and with all of that to run a program like Pro tools, Logic, or whatever? Do they run into these problems? In the middle of recording a 30 piece orchestra, does the system 'lock up' because of one too many inserts?

 

Everyone will have a different answer and point of view, I always want something better and less complicated, but I can't keep spending cash for every new and improved product out there. (BTW... How can something be improved if it is new?)

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People see what they look for... If a person's attitude is that of finding things wrong with something, every little thing that is bad will stick out to them and be a major annoyance. If one's attitude is more positive and optimistic, they will still notice those things, but they will not be such a bother.
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People see what they look for... If a person's attitude is that of finding things wrong with something, every little thing that is bad will stick out to them and be a major annoyance. If one's attitude is more positive and optimistic, they will still notice those things, but they will not be such a bother.

 

LOL, my wife keeps trying to tell me that.

 

I guess if you develop an efficient work flow, you expect things to run smoothly.

If your work flow and 'Zone' are disrupted by the little things that shouldn't really be a bother, then production and creativity suffer.

 

Back when I used Analog machines, I would accidentally hit the wrong button and the tape would rewind off the reel 'Flap/Flap/Flap/Flap/Flap/Flap/Flap...'

 

Now, if I click too fast, I get the 'beachball of death.'

 

So I don't think it will ever end.

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Matt,

 

I like your philosophy. However, an optimistic outlook doesn't fix bugs -- and that's what's bogging me down with L8.0.2. at the moment. Even the latest update has some really DOH!!! bugs that should have never been allowed to pass enough muster to make it into a "maintenance release". Those, combined with the extreme changes in Logic's overall GUI behavior (which is functionally much less efficient than L7) make it difficult for me to accept having to work slower in L8 to achieve the same result as in L7.

 

I understand putte's frustration and sentiments. For me, the solution is to go back to L7 and stay there. And I'd suggest that putte do the same. For the kind of work I do, L8 offers no advantage (other than to offer a 23.976 frame rate. But I've worked on 23.976 films before in L7 and I can do it again).

 

As far as what the future brings? That's the perennial question that no one can answer other than the boyz in Cupertino. And they're historically tight-lipped about future updates (they're not unique in this respect, but it doesn't help us very much when they rarely ever acknowledge known bugs, let alone talk about what we can look foward to).

 

Cubase seems to be the most Logic-like on the surface. DP has some really good features for film scoring. There's also Nuendo. But regardless of what the alternatives are, there will be a huge learning curve and the inevitable frustration that takes the form of "Why can't _____ do _____ like Logic?"

 

Sigh...

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from version 4 to version 6 i was a huge fan of Logic, with Logic 7 my scepticism got bigger and since Logic 8 i am nothing but dissapointed.

 

In your shoes - after 3-4 years of disappointment - I would have left Logic. If you have been going downhill in terms of being satisfied with Logic since 7, and are 'nothing but disappointed' with Logic 8, you and Apple/the developer team probably have very different visions for Logic's future. Why waste your time?

 

 

we waited very very long for Logic 8, and all i see is a very nice looking app with a few new features, still containing the old audio-engine and loads of those old bugs.

...and others see a revamped UI, lots of bugfixes (I'm sure there are more than 1000 bugfixes only between 8.0 and 8.02) - and increased performance (on Intel Macs). Both the Logic updates and the 10.5 updates have been increasing performance on my system - and the difference isn't subtle. However - I'm sure that if they have limited resources, they'll focus on improving how things behave on Intel chips - PPC will be left behind and I'm sure some PPC users already suffer from this.

 

 

the pace of updates is turtle-like.

I miss new features as well. I can also see that if the coders would have continued to add features to the old code, and not reconstruct the UI. we would have a lot more problems than we have today. Maybe you hadn't complained, but all those who said ' please don't add anything new before the user interface and stability/performance issues have been solved' are now hardly complaining. Some people will complain whatever the coders do - and while I agree that Logic really needs a few new features, I can also see that revamping the UI means a lot of work. Making Logic sample accurate (in the main window) alone is probably a lot of work.

 

 

the problems i have with Logic are rather immense: songs get corrupted after a while (they become very slow, loads of beachball appearances, and sometimes i cant even manage to load up an arrangement at all.)

I know this doesn't help you at all, but I haven't had this once. Logic should have a report system that allows/requires that people document their setup in an as detailed way as possible, and include song examples, preference files etc. whenever needed.

 

not to mention all these overload-messages, audio-midi sync errors, random crashes, etc.

Do you have unreasonable overload messages in 8.02 - with the Safety I/O buffer off, and a trouble free RAM?

 

 

being rather experienced after all those 13 years i think i know when its a plugin being the culprit, or when Logic is the bad guy,
Maybe you're right, but since you have corrupted songs, and others don't - how would you know how they became corrupted?

 

I'm so naive that i would think that Apple, who is making an unbelievable amount of money these days, can both afford to fix bugs/performance/stability issues and implement features lots of us need. I assume that they are working on both, but that we won't see anything new, feature wise, before 8.1 is out. If that takes too long, I agree that something seems strange. Maybe the old coders also are working on developing CoreAudio, or working part time on developing OSX, or have been hired by Jobs to work with developing a new type of computer chips that are totally designed for audio/video and will be the core of a future generation of Macs. We'll see.

 

Logic needs features, and some serious issues from Logic 7 (and earlier) are still not solved, but I'm not as unhappy as you are. I like Logic a lot, and I know all DAW users have something to complain about - whatever DAW they use. In the old days, before Apple acquired Emagic, each of the coders probably had to work harder in order both to first enter the Mac market and later become the native 'industry standard' (on Mac), but today, I'm sure there are a lot more people working on Logic than the good old Lengeling, Adam and Homburg. As long as they work, and not waste as much time on internet and foruming as we do, I'm sure we'll see Logic developing steadily in a good direction.

 

They - and Apple/Jobs -know that if some other software company will release a new version that can do what Logic can do, has a Mac like UI and is so user configurable that Logic users can switch over without too much headache, people will leave Logic if the program doesn't keep developing in terms of beat editing, score improvements, ease of use etc.. I don't think Apple want that.

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Wanna make a Top 10 list over what it was in Logic 7 that was better than in Logic 8? Or Top 5?

 

FP, forgive me but it's hard to tell from your post if you want to know what the differences are for sake of your own work or if you want to spur a debate. If it's the latter, then nah, I'm not going there. Been there, done that already in any number of other threads.

 

But if you're really interested in understanding the differences between L7 and L8 so you can decide for yourself if it would be worth using one over the other, than yes, I'll list a top 5.

 

In short, what I said about L7's GUI efficiency over L8 is based on the window focus behavior of L7's GUI. These behaviors doesn't exist in L8, so that represents a fait accomplis for me in terms of my ever being able to successfully use L8. It's that simple. The bugs are another matter altogether. I'll continue to stay current with L8, but I don't have to like it LOL!!

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My #1 reason is that LS8 works for what I am doing.

 

Yeah, OK, fine, but all that squinting at the new GUI is taking it's toll on your eyes! And you're prematurely aging at a pace that even your dentist can't keep up with! It's uh, kinda hard not to notice...

 

http://a676.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/7/s_ec18eb5ce58a83cd3459dd8d9a200d23.jpg

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My #1 reason is that LS8 works for what I am doing.

 

Yeah, OK, fine, but all that squinting at the new GUI is taking it's toll on your eyes! And you're prematurely aging at a pace that even your dentist can't keep up with! It's uh, kinda hard not to notice...

 

http://a676.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/7/s_ec18eb5ce58a83cd3459dd8d9a200d23.jpg

 

Whadda ya mean?

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.. hmm, i for one love the look of Logic 8. i dont make use of this new consolidated thingie though, but work with screensets instead. (2 screens here.)

 

oh, another thingie: even though the interface is appleized now it´s the only application i have causing me troubles once i switch apps in the dock. sometimes i click into Logic´s arrange and though its the other app being selected in the dock. further on i sometimes have stuff in the menus greyed out. i then have to go forth and back a few times between an other app in the dock in order to have Logic the foremost app. and i´m not the only one having this 'bug' ..

 

ah, and while am at it: the transportbar optically freezes here, always. and again i´m not the only one having this. it´s things like these that make me wonder how much they really care. i mean, Logic´s been an Apple-app for long enough now, i shouldn´t suffer from such superficial things.

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Whadda ya mean?

 

I dunno... couldn't help but see the resemblance... I have that Steven McQueen "Papillon"-slash-Logic look about me too...

 

http://www.score2picture.com/logicpix/papillon1.jpg

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Wanna make a Top 10 list over what it was in Logic 7 that was better than in Logic 8? Or Top 5?

 

FP, forgive me but it's hard to tell from your post if you want to know what the differences are for sake of your own work or if you want to spur a debate. If it's the latter, then nah, I'm not going there. Been there, done that already in any number of other threads.

 

But if you're really interested in understanding the differences between L7 and L8 so you can decide for yourself if it would be worth using one over the other, than yes, I'll list a top 5.

 

In short, what I said about L7's GUI efficiency over L8 is based on the window focus behavior of L7's GUI. These behaviors doesn't exist in L8, so that represents a fait accomplis for me in terms of my ever being able to successfully use L8. It's that simple. The bugs are another matter altogether.

 

I agree in the focus issues - but still prefer (I have worked a lot in all Logic versions that have existed).

 

There were a few things I really missed from L7 in the beginning, and a few things that IMO have changed to the worse, but I still think L8 is a major improvement.

 

Among things I think has not improved or gotten worse in L8 is the inconsistent use of colors (for active/selected stuff), and lack of SMPTE view in movies. I also know of a few functions others miss a lot, like the ability to 'force' convert files (split stereo), auto-conversion of DTDM-objects to CoreAudio and L8's confusing way of dealing with track/channel strip names - which sometimes frustrates me as well. Or lack of a Toggle Editor key command (for editors used as separate windows). Or a way to store record path file names. My main gripe is still that Logic still doesn't compete well in the beat editing (Elastic Time etc) department - I'm probably just a little more patient than Putte, because I can't think of one single reason they wouldn't already be planning to implement something at least as good as Beat Detective/Elastic Audio. If Gerhard Lengeling is writing OSX code instead of Logic code, they may need to find 2-3 others to replace him, but they can afford that.

 

I'll continue to stay current with L8, but I don't have to like it LOL

 

True! :-) But - maybe you actually like it, since you don't go back?

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I'm probably just a little more patient than Putte, because I can't think of one single reason they wouldn't already be planning to implement something at least as good as Beat Detective/Elastic Audio. If Gerhard Lengeling is writing OSX code instead of Logic code, they may need to find 2-3 others to replace him, but they can afford that.

 

.. i´d love to share your optimism .. :)

 

sure, they could afford that. but, why should they? they lowered the price, they added a huge content beside all the instruments and plugs being already inside Logic. Logic is, money wise, not really important for daddy Apple. and the basis for Garageband alone was worth the acquistion for them, in my opinion. if the pro-audio market would be really interesting for them Logic wouldn´t be where it´s at. we´re talking 6 years here, that´s quite some time considering the pace of progress in the audio-world, or software in general.

 

it´s been 6 years, and that old Logic code is still there, dressed in Apple-style.

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lack of SMPTE view in movies

 

Not sure what you mean. Are you talking about the giant SMPTE display?

 

Or lack of a Toggle Editor key command (for editors used as separate windows).

 

I agree. If you use the "Open..." window commands, you can't toggle them open/closed. You can just keep opening more of them.

 

I'll continue to stay current with L8, but I don't have to like it LOL

 

True! :-) But - maybe you actually like it, since you don't go back?

 

I'm going back to L7 right after this project. I thought I could use it to advantage (writing a very large score). I do love the octave +/- function, and the fact that score symbols draw infintely quicker than in L7. But there are too many bugs and inconsistencies. So yes, I'm on L8 now. Gave it its second big chance (first one was a score that should have taken 3 days to finish but took 3 weeks because of problems). So stick a fork in me, I'm done. ;)

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it´s been 6 years, and that old Logic code is still there, dressed in Apple-style.

 

Make some performance tests and see how much that has changed between 10.5.2 and 10.5.4, and between Logic 8 and 8.02. and you'll soon see that the code (OSX + Logic code) is very different from what it was only a few months ago.... OTOH, if you didn't like L7 either - maybe you simply need something else. Everybody can't please everybody all the time.

 

There's apparently also been a lot of changes that has to do with porting over vs. replacing old code (people who know what they talk about use words like Carbon and Cocoa). I'm sure others can explain this better than me.

 

I'm sorry if the optimizations don't apply to your system, but I'm seeing dramatic improvements on my 8-core Mac. Maybe they are heading towards becoming a 'Pro Tools-killer' after all - and focus mainly on the most powerful systems (which most ex-PT users probably can afford)?

 

 

Have you seen this ( http://www.gearslutz.com/board/new-product-alert/198855-logic-8-02-a.html) thread about performance improvements?

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Hi..I use LP8 but have since started using Pro-Tools 7.4....I love them both..But so far it hasn't been a love/hate thing with PT...I just wish Logic8 didn't insist on interleaved bounces...I know there are work arounds but that is one of the killjoys of Logic...Then again I also love Live and Reason...I must admit to leaning more on the workflow in PT however...I put it off for a couple years but once I saw PT7.4 in action it was a no brainer...I don't know about anyone else but I have been waiting for some of those features to occur in Logic for years..JON
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I just wish Logic8 didn't insist on interleaved bounces...I know there are work arounds but that is one of the killjoys of Logic...

 

Interleaved is Logic's chosen file format, and provide better performance in a DAW than a split format does.

 

You can freely choose split or interleaved bounces in Logic, and if you have two options, one of them isn't 'a workaround' - it's simply the other available choice.

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By all means try Digital Performer, I use it and am debating between making it be my default DAW- right after I had decided to make Logic that, I had to use a lot of DP and am really liking it.

 

And since you say you don't care for the FX and loops and VI's that come with Logic- I love that stuff- then you'll be left with a very nice workflow in DP once you get used to it. The only thing I really miss is Space Designer, and DP 6 will have a convolution reverb in it, and that'll be when I make my decision.

 

But: don't forget we are going into DP version 6- to expect it to be bug free is insanity, you would be jumping from the pan into the fire there. So my advice is:don't go right to version 6- buy a used copy of Digital Performer 5 and get used to it, and that way you can see if you want to move up to 6, which will add $200 to the total.

 

Just some thoughts- to me, I think Logic is great, but then again, I'm very new to it, and never used any other version outside of Express 7, which I got nowhere with. So it's all still learning for me. Good luck though... I think it's going to work for me, I love to compose with it.

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Well, I recently switched from Cubase and DIgital Performer to Logic and I personally think Logic is the bomb. So much so that I'm even paying cash to get certified in it. I've never done that with a DAW before.

 

I dunno - I feel like I've come home. Sure, there are some irritating niggles about it - Undo doesn't always work properly - I've had a crash or two. I've dealt with CoreAudio overloads. But for the most part it has been really stable for me. I like the fact that I can just whip out my laptop and make beats anytime I want, then finish things up when I get home. And did I mention it's STABLE?! As someone who's come from Cubase and had to deal with oftentimes multiple crashes in a session, it is a GODSEND.

 

Maybe I haven't pushed it as far as I can. Who knows? But the bottom line is, after wrestling with Cubase and trying out DP, I've finally found a DAW that lets me just get right to work.

 

Obviously your mileage may vary. But I'm one happy Logic user here.

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Obviously your mileage may vary. But I'm one happy Logic user here.

 

this is fairly typical of people who are coming to logic fairly fresh. everything i have heard is that LP8 is actually attracting a lot of people from other DAWs, but the old guard logic users are somewhat disenchanted. i count myself amongst them.

 

LP8 coms with some great great things, and the library drawer fro auditioning sounds is a godsend, but if i was to make a top 10 of where LP8 fails next to LP7 it would look like this:

 

1) window focus

2) window focus

3) window focus

4) window focus

5) window focus

6) window focus

7) window focus

8) window focus

9 window focus

10) window focus

 

i have been using LP8 for a long time and very intensely and i have given it as good a go as you can get. in some respects i am a shade faster in 8 than 7. but in general i am making far more mistakes, closing wrong windows, struggling with windows jumping around, jerky slow movements, waiting for a simple function to execute, opening menus....etc etc it just gets wearing after a while. i was very very fast with 7, and now i am having to wait for LP8 to catch me up. i am seriously considering going to 7 for my next big project. i dunno, there are some deal-makers in LP8 though i would find tough to live without.

 

i don't remember such a feeling amongst established users that there might something else out there that might do the job better. i have to admit, i would have considered myself diehard, but even i am looking around.

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FP asked: "What would be the most important functional changes in your opinion (ie. not executing speed) that would improve the window focus situation in L8?"

 

Here we go indeed! (stevenson and FP, you provocateurs you!)

 

1. To make window focus operate exactly like L7.

 

Here's one case in point (describing using my key command set):

 

L7 Behavior

• select a region in Arrange

• hit F1 to open a separate event editor to examine the contents of the region

• decide I'm going to delete that region

• ESC to close the event editor window

• CMD-X to cut the region (it won't be pasted anywhere, so it's the equivalent of "delete")

 

Very fast operation! :D But look at this situation closely. How is it that I can go right from closing that event editor window to deleting the region? Because Logic 7 didn't lose focus on the region that I selected in the arrange window. Logic7 remembered that after I closed the event editor that the focus should return to the selected object in the arrange window. Brilliant. :D

 

Compare this to L8 behavior:

 

L8 Behavior

Same procedure as before... select a region in Arrange, open event editor, examine contents, close the window, CMD-X to delete the region.

 

There's one difference. When I hit CMD-X, nothing happens. :shock:

 

OK, I'll try again:

 

CMD-X... nothing happens... Why? Because Logic has f---ing lost the plot. Even though I've closed the event editor, focus has NOT returned to the arrange window and to the region I clicked just two seconds ago. At this point I have no idea where focus has shifted to now that the event editor window has closed. :evil:

 

So to delete that region, I have to select it again! Not even close to brilliant. But now things get interesting...

 

If I open a separate piano roll or score editor window to examine the contents of that region and I close the editor, focus DOES return to the arrange page AND to the region I selected; I can then use CMD-X to immediately delete that region without having to select it again in the arrange window. INCONSISTENT BEHAVIOR withing L8 itself. :evil:

 

More beneficial behavior stripped from L8 that needs to be restored:

2• remembering the order in which windows were opened

3• when closing all windows to "clean things up" and create a new screenset, say, closing the last visible window doesn't result in a "do you want to save your song" dialog as it does in L8. Jeez, all I'm doing is closing windows, not telling Logic I want out of my song...

4• restore the key commands for opening and closing separate editor windows (toggle)

5• restore the key command for closing float windows

6• THIS IS A HUGE ONE: in L7, a mouse scroll wheel can be used to scroll a window's contents regardless of whether or not that window has been given focus by clicking on it. It only requires that the mouse pointer be hovering over the window. Brilliant! Behavior removed entirely from L8 :evil:

7• remove the utterly stupid L8 limitation whereby even a window that has focus cannot be scrolled using a scroll wheel when the mouse pointer hovers over a scroll bar. Gah! :evil:

 

L8 BUG FIXES that are needed IMMEDIATELY:

 

• fix L8's broken content link behavior, including:

 

- when selecting notes on a staff in the score editor, the region will highlight in Arrange and the staff will highlight in the editor. So you'd think that region is selected and all editors will display that region's contents, yes? Not so fast! Because if you open an event list or piano roll there is no guarantee that they will show the contents of that region (they will often show the contents of some totally unrelated region).

 

• fix inconsistent region-->editor behavior in embedded Arrange window editors:

 

Double clicking on a MIDI region once will open an editor (either score or piano roll). Double-clicking on it again will close it. Nice, consistent. However, the same cannot be said for audio regions:

 

Double-click on an audio region and the sample editor appears at the bottom of the arrange page and gets focus; without moving the cursor, double-click the region again and watch carefully -- the focus changes from the sample editor to the arrange page, and then back to the sample editor. Quite unlike what I described above. The expected behavior would be that the sample editor would close when 2-clicked for the second time, just like a MIDI region.

 

There's more to that particular problem, as well as other beneficial L7 window focus behaviors which I haven't described, but I've gone on long enough and I'm going to leave it there.

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- when selecting notes on a staff in the score editor, the region will highlight in Arrange and the staff will highlight in the editor. So you'd think that region is selected and all editors will display that region's contents, yes? Not so fast! Because if you open an event list or piano roll there is no guarantee that they will show the contents of that region (they will often show the contents of some totally unrelated region).

 

oh this one has me twitching and shouting out uncontrollably in feverish paroxysms of hate and nervous dyspepsia.

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