Why not use normalize during bouncing?

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

Monkey business?

[dkgross]

I'm sticking with my 'if I see red, I turn it down a few db' theory on mixing.

 

 

 

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[shivermetimbers]

I looked at an audio region. No matter what part of this Audio sample I select, the Normalize function will raise (or lower) it to a peak value of -1.72dB (That's the value I have it set at in the Functions settings.)

 

Using the change gain function will show the sample is clipped if changed to a peak level of 0 db. The entire selected sample is changed (not dynamically) in relation to the peak sample.

 

The same audio channel with the overall gain set to a value well over 0dB was normalized back down to -1.72dB.

 

Even though the peak sample was at this value, the level meter would usually never show anything near that value.

 

So if I had a perfect mix in the sense that nothing bad showed up on the meters and my ears were happy, the normalizing the mix when bouncing would change all that based on the one peak sample.

 

Edited January 21, 2009 by shivermetimbers

[CrassMonkey]

Monkey business?

 

but it's a good monkey

[David Nahmani]

but, when it is just randomly cutting the DB it is also flattening the mix. To the point on emphasis.. if you are not going through and EQ'ing the items in your mix and relying on normalize to adjust leveling, you are never going to get (or very much not likely to get) the end result you would like.

Normalizing doesn't cut anything randomly. I just explained that normalizing achieves the same results as watching your levels to make sure the highest peak is exactly 0 dB FS. So you could get those results you would like without ever normalizing. That's what all professionals do.

[inquiry]

but, when it is just randomly cutting the DB it is also flattening the mix. To the point on emphasis.. if you are not going through and EQ'ing the items in your mix and relying on normalize to adjust leveling, you are never going to get (or very much not likely to get) the end result you would like.

Normalizing doesn't cut anything randomly. I just explained that normalizing achieves the same results as watching your levels to make sure the highest peak is exactly 0 dB FS. So you could get those results you would like without ever normalizing. That's what all professionals do.

I wonder if CrassMonkey might think normalize is "riding the level" -- it's not. It makes one level adjustment to the entire bounce, based on the highest sample that occurs during the whole bounce.

[NaiveAmoeba]

I'm afraid this thread is unduly confusing you.

 

All the normalize function does is find the highest peak in your audio, and determine how far below or above 0dB Full Scale this is.

 

Good way of describing it! Cheers. Yeah, I shouldn't have said about compression and limiting, all I meant is that it's unnecessary as long as your output levels peak at 0db anyway. So mastering it well doesn't require normalising.

[dpr]

Hi, I am new to the forum and new to recording/mixing but I think from reading this thread I am starting to understand normalization (hopefully).

 

So if normalization only does one level adjustment (as opposed to virtually riding the fader throughout the whole bounce)... Say you're really bad at mixing and there is one section of your song that clips like crazy, like at +10db or something. But the rest of your mix is in the -6db range. Since the normalize function will detect the highest peak in your song (+10db) and "move it down," does that mean that the rest of your mix will be moved down with it and become comparatively quiet to the one loud section?

 

Sorry if that's a dumb question, I may be misunderstanding the explanation.

[David Nahmani]

Hello dpr and welcome to the forum! You're perfectly understanding normalization. In your case, normalization would bring the entire level of the track by 10 dB, so the peak of the track is now at 0 dB FS. That also means the rest of the mix will be in the -16 dB FS range, so quieter.

[David Nahmani]

Yeah, I shouldn't have said about compression and limiting, all I meant is that it's unnecessary as long as your output levels peak at 0db anyway. So mastering it well doesn't require normalising.

 

Exactly. Which is why that option shouldn't exist (it's unnecessary for pros, and confuses newbies) - or if really it must exist (for some unkown reason), then at least it should be off by default.

[Alex Tomb]

understood all this!

but i was wondering:

is it the same to lower the master at -6db or have the master at 0db and lower all the other tracks individually so that the master at default value is getting at -6db?

thanks!

[David Nahmani]

is it the same to lower the master at -6db or have the master at 0db and lower all the other tracks individually so that the master at default value is getting at -6db

 

In Logic, yes. Other DAWs, not necessarily. It depends on their summing engine.

[inquiry]

Which is why that option shouldn't exist (it's unnecessary for pros, and confuses newbies) - or if really it must exist (for some unkown reason), then at least it should be off by default.

I simply disagree. It's appropriate — on by default — for the hobbyist who needs a quick, safe, reasonably loud bounce and knows absolutely nothing about any of this. Intersample clipping is a witheringly tiny problem for listening to their techno tracks in the car (especially on kick transients!), compared to the bounce being +12 over or -20 under. Turn it off if you know why you don't need it.

 

There are also plenty of times a professional will find it handy when bouncing individual tracks — in rush situations, sound design, etc.

[David Nahmani]

I simply disagree. It's appropriate — on by default — for the hobbyist who needs a quick, safe, reasonably loud bounce and knows absolutely nothing about any of this. Intersample clipping is a witheringly tiny problem for listening to their techno tracks in the car (especially on kick transients!), compared to the bounce being +12 over or -20 under. Turn it off if you know why you don't need it.

Intersample clipping notwithstanding, why not have the newbie hear exactly what they're going to bounce? Maybe the techno producer LIKES the digital clipping on his snares, now all of a sudden it's gone after normalization? How many more newbie threads titled "My bounces sound weaker than my mix in Logic"? Anyway, isn't that more educative to have newbies hear what they bounce, and bounce what they hear? If you're going to mess with their mix while bouncing, why not have a default mastering setting (default EQ, default compression, limiting, etc...)? Doesn't make much sense to me.

 

There are also plenty of times a professional will find it handy when bouncing individual tracks — in rush situations, sound design, etc.

Why would any professional ever need to normalize an individual track bounce?

[inquiry]

Doesn't make much sense to me.

Audio not clipping, peaking at 0dBfs, is the most generic starting point. Branch out from there.

 

There are also plenty of times a professional will find it handy when bouncing individual tracks — in rush situations, sound design, etc.

Why would any professional ever need to normalize an individual track bounce?

in rush situations, sound design, etc.

[dpr]

Hello dpr and welcome to the forum! You're perfectly understanding normalization. In your case, normalization would bring the entire level of the track by 10 dB, so the peak of the track is now at 0 dB FS. That also means the rest of the mix will be in the -16 dB FS range, so quieter.

 

So therefore, I'm assuming that the only way normalization would be beneficial is if you knew how to avoid such a case by knowing how to mix properly.

 

And if you know how to mix properly, then you don't need it anyway so it is never really necessary. Correct?

[shivermetimbers]

So therefore, I'm assuming that the only way normalization would be beneficial is if you knew how to avoid such a case by knowing how to mix properly.

 

And if you know how to mix properly, then you don't need it anyway so it is never really necessary. Correct?

 

Normalizing a signal is part of mixing properly. The point is that not everyone understands what 'Normalizing' does. Simply thinking that clicking on the Normalize box when you bounce will fix the mix is a mistake.

 

 

If you have all the levels right and mixed properly, why would you try to normalize it? What happens if you have a near perfect mix but missed that one sample of a click/pop that you did not hear or see on the meters. That one sample screws up everything if the mix gets normalized. Now your work is either too loud or too quiet.

 

The Sample editor is a great place to search for these problems, specifically, the search peak function. You can set a preference to the level or percentage you want the track to me 'normalized' to. '0' dB isn't set in stone.

 

Defaulting the Bounce to normalize is a mistake.

[dpr]

Makes perfect sense! Thank you!

[cyanbaby101]

Guys,

 

To those of you who think Logic should remove the normalize bounce feature...I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.

 

Its great because I am creating a bunch of projects in which I want all the final bounces to be hitting the same dB peak.

 

Instead of removing the Normalize Bounce feature they need to expand. Right now it defaults to normalizing your bounce to 0 dB.

 

Anyone know how to adjust the default normalize bounce from 0 dB to whatever value you want? Say -2 dB?

[Kent Sandvik]

Yes, I don't really know myself if a normalize makes that kind of difference, one single sample that is high and the rest is adjusted to this one. While real normalization looks at the average (RMS). But hey, if someone needs it...

[steveurick]

Can I ask a really stupid question? First of all, I have just jumped into using Logic, with no training. i made an interesting song, and wanted to bounce it to mp3 or anything I can share it with. I get distortion on the bass track. Stupid question--why is the mp3 file sound so different from what I hear in Logic? Thank you for your patience!

[Kent Sandvik]

This topic has been discussed so many times so you have plenty of advice if you do a forum search using those keywords.

[steveurick]

Yeah, I looked at some of the threads, and there is plenty there. Plenty of confusing conflicting advice. I will try again, though.

[steveurick]

Thanks for all you help, pal.

[bop2thebone]

I always tell everyone willing to listen to never, ever use Normalization in the Bounce window. Because that means that you're not bouncing what you're listening to when pressing play, so what's the point?

 

Mix it so it sounds good, then once you're happy with the sound, why would you bounce something else? Bounce what you just mixed. That means that normalize option has to be off.

 

I have tried to lobby apple to take that option away from the Bounce window, who knows if they'll listen. I strongly feel it should at least be "Off" by default.

 

You my friend, are the man! how many times did I bounce my projects to master before I came across your posts re this issue..and have kept wondering: WHY IS THIS ON AND NOT OFF..and this kept re creating a non master volume without adding compression..non..even after using a multiple plugins..I know this post is old, but it's never too late to say thanks..so thank you!

[triplets]

Can I ask a really stupid question? First of all, I have just jumped into using Logic, with no training. i made an interesting song, and wanted to bounce it to mp3 or anything I can share it with. I get distortion on the bass track. Stupid question--why is the mp3 file sound so different from what I hear in Logic? Thank you for your patience!

 

Make sure Normalize is Off in the bounce dialogue.

[TOKYO_UNDERWORLD]

Hey! I see this is a very old thread, but I have the same questions now. haha

 

I'm a producer, but I also DJ, and this is my experience:

 

After mixing and mastering a track of my own (which I dare say I've become fairly decent at), if I don't normalize it when bouncing, it sounds way too 'quiet' when mixing (DJ) it with tracks I bought on Beatport etc. It's even clearly visible in the waveform on Serato. If I do normalize a track when bouncing however, it matches the other tracks' volume perfectly. Of course these professional releases have been mixed and mastered way better than my own bedroom productions, but I can't help but feel these have been normalized as well.

 

Am I wrong?

[triplets]

Hey! I see this is a very old thread, but I have the same questions now. haha

 

I'm a producer, but I also DJ, and this is my experience:

 

After mixing and mastering a track of my own (which I dare say I've become fairly decent at), if I don't normalize it when bouncing, it sounds way too 'quiet' when mixing (DJ) it with tracks I bought on Beatport etc. It's even clearly visible in the waveform on Serato. If I do normalize a track when bouncing however, it matches the other tracks' volume perfectly. Of course these professional releases have been mixed and mastered way better than my own bedroom productions, but I can't help but feel these have been normalized as well.

 

Am I wrong?

 

You're using volume as an indicator if something sounds good or bad. Typical loudness trap.

Normalize will kill the punch and dynamics that you achieved in the mix. If you care about those things, make better use of compression when you're mixing and don't normalize.

[TOKYO_UNDERWORLD]

Hi! Thanks for your answer.

Maybe I didn't make myself sufficiently clear. I'm not saying they sound bad, I'm saying they sound too quiet in comparison with official releases purchased on websites like Beatport.

[triplets]

Hi! Thanks for your answer.

Maybe I didn't make myself sufficiently clear. I'm not saying they sound bad, I'm saying they sound too quiet in comparison with official releases purchased on websites like Beatport.

 

Then put an Adaptive Limiter on your Stereo output to match the loudness.