Pro Tools style Audio Editer

[zoltanjohnson]

I know i might get allot of flack for this but i just gatta say I'm in love with logic being a PT user also but the only thing keeping me from switching over 100% is audio editing is a pain in logic being used to the PT style of editing . I mean everything happens in the same window in PT u never have to open another window just begin editing and all the tools are selected .....

[whospilgrim]

Im pretty sure you can do most things in the arange window in logic save for things like gain changing. Then again I've learned on logic so I'm not sure what the pt experience is like... I'm going to have to learn soon though.

 

The big criticism about logic in versions past was the workflow not, er, flowing. A lot has changed since then, specifically in logic studio. Out of curiosity, what in particular about the audio editing do you find frustrating?

[David Nahmani]

Let's keep the Suggestion forum for specific suggestions. If you want to share what specific function (or an example of a thing) you can't do in Logic like in PT, maybe we can help you find the workaround.

 

In Logic 8 you can pretty much do all your editing from the Arrange area.

[davidpye]

What cant you do in the arrange window, that you wish to do?

[cymbaline]

I completely agree with the idea of making the edit window more PT-like. Specifically, the idea of a "multi-tool" that changes based on where the cursor is over the region, as well as the quck keys. This is a dificult thing for me because at work I use PT, but I obviousely cant afford an HD system with Waves plug-ins, so when I have to bring work home, I can either:

 

A: do all the edits in PT, and use their low end plug-ins.

B: do all the edits in PT, and export my session to Logic and use it's higher end plug-ins.

C: do all the edits in Logic, which is a lot more time consuming, and still get to use the higher end plug-ins.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only perosn here faced with this sort of dilema. The idea of Logic having better editing capabilities would make all the difference in the world for me, and I think it's the one thing thats keeping Logic from taking over as the industry standard. Studios and Post facilities can no longer afford HD systems for PT, plus Waves plug-ins. Thats way too much overhead for an industry that is slowing to a hault. If logic could take PT's place, it would be great for everyone on a financial level, and you have the huge plus of being able to choose your interface, and not be stuck with one of Digi's interfaces.

 

Also, having some sort of Real Time Audio Suite-ish capability for the plugins would be great, as well as the diferent editing modes that PT offers (slip, grid, shuffle, spot)

 

For the record, I rarely use PT at home simply becasue it offers so much less than Logic. All the amazing virtual instruments and plug-ins along do it for me. But the sequencing capabilities really go above and beyong any other program.

 

Keep it up Logic!

[davidpye]

But aside from Audiosuite style plugin rendering, which personally I never long for, what can't you do in Logic that you can in PT?

 

With the Apple + Click second tool, Right Click third tool, Ctrl + Alt + Click zoom tool, and the Pointer tool really acting like a multi tool. I can edit in Logic as fast as in Tools.

 

Besides the multi tool in Protools is horrible, sure the basic functionality is cool, but all the toggling of the different tools' various functions is terrible and a bane of most engineers lives, a massive time waster. You can see evidence of this on the Digidesign forum where you'll see the massive list of PT bugs which is ever expanding with PT8.

 

I know there is no Elastic Audio/Beat detective but as far as regular editing features go I don't know what we're missing?

[davidpye]

BTW I'm not being challenging here, I'm just saying, What do you need to do, because if you say specifically then we can help you.

[Logic Pro]

I know i might get allot of flack for this but i just gatta say I'm in love with logic being a PT user also but the only thing keeping me from switching over 100% is audio editing is a pain in logic being used to the PT style of editing . I mean everything happens in the same window in PT u never have to open another window just begin editing and all the tools are selected .....

 

There has to be a way, the guy who was behind Emagic could of done it today, he would of re invented the same features and abilities with the CPU speeds out there now, but Apple makes the decisions now, and if Apple really wanted this and thought it was important they would of called him about it.

 

Logic still needs a make over, my opinion is that editing in Logic is no way near Pro Tools still., but it delivers a better sounding mix, better plugs, PDC, POW, i still use PT to open sessions, edit them, track stuff at home (LE or M powered) but do the finals in Logic as for mixing, buses, side chaining and mastering.

 

Unless you have Pro Tools HD the LE and MP are only good to play back tracks, critical editing, sound designing and exporting to logic., my opinion.

[Logic Pro]

But aside from Audiosuite style plugin rendering, which personally I never long for, what can't you do in Logic that you can in PT?

 

With the Apple + Click second tool, Right Click third tool, Ctrl + Alt + Click zoom tool, and the Pointer tool really acting like a multi tool. I can edit in Logic as fast as in Tools.

 

Besides the multi tool in Protools is horrible, sure the basic functionality is cool, but all the toggling of the different tools' various functions is terrible and a bane of most engineers lives, a massive time waster. You can see evidence of this on the Digidesign forum where you'll see the massive list of PT bugs which is ever expanding with PT8.

 

I know there is no Elastic Audio/Beat detective but as far as regular editing features go I don't know what we're missing?

I was using the Command to alter to the second tool as well until i realized that Control + option brings up the zoom tool., now i assign the Marquee as my second tool and fly, maybe not as fast or as accurate as Pro Tools but works for me.

 

I do this:

1 Main tool pointer,

2-Command Click 2nd tool Marquee

3-Control-option-click works as a regular magnification tool over regions.

 

That pretty much allows me to zoom into areas, select with the marquee tool to edit, control+option click to zoom back out, then i command right or left to move between markers, its creative and ALMOST as quick as Pro Tools, in a way it gives Logic allot of editing leverage too.

 

 

but i doubt Logic can match the resolution of the faders in Pro Tools, designed after a SSL fader (1500 bucks) it aint no mackie or midi resolution midi object, unlike the limits of most software sequencers that skip decimals at numbers like midi of 128., i can hear it myself at times where logic just can not get those tiny notches in the volume when you need em.

[davidpye]

Logic can match the resolution of the faders in Pro Tools, designed after a SSL fader (1500 bucks) it aint no mackie or midi resolution midi object, unlike the limits of most software sequencers that skip decimals at numbers like midi of 128.

 

I don't think the Protools fader was actually modelled after the SSL fader, the faders on the Procontrol and the D-Control/Icon control surfaces were, but the ones in software have no real difference to those in Logic. The faders on a Control 24 feel terrible, they make a mackie feel like a Neve.

Logic's faders go up and down in 0.2 dB steps, this is enough for me, and I never ever hear it.

[Logic Pro]

no they do they match the controllers, its the controllers that are not part of the actual signal flow but rather simply control the software

 

logics faders are fine, but phase cancellation will happen at any time depending on the session, you will hear it when there is 24 to 64 audio play back, atm i think we are at 16,24 and possibly 32bit.

 

Un Fortunately Apple makes doe on the Prosumer market rather then as the mid priced musician market even with garage band free., but Logic is the best under Pro Tools, if you only need to run loops, time stretching and built grooves get Ableton Live., Cubase is ok too but i have logic

[davidpye]

I really don't know where you got the idea that Protools' faders are "modelled" upon an SSL fader, I don't know of any SSL desks which have Digital faders, I'm not sure if that's even what you mean. If you have a link to evidence that I'd love to see it.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the Phase cancellation thing, or the bit rate thing you said. More info would be appreciated.

[cymbaline]

ok, to be specific, aside from just making music (in which case I dont really need a tone of editing capabilities), I do a lot of post work on films and tv. IF there were a "shuffle mode" in Logic, it would be easier for me to select the area in a black pull-up, delete, and have the regions jump to the beginning of the selection, and help me resync the audio with the video. IF there were a "spot mode" in Logic, I could click on a region, type in a time code, and have the regions jump to that particular time code. Im sure there is a way to drag reagions and watch the time code change to where the region starts, but I havnt figured it out, and syncing audio with video in Logic is a bit tough for me. And editing quick keys really help out a lot with splitting regions, making fades, trimming, etc.

 

Hope that helps!

[davidpye]

There are too shuffle modes, Left and Right, look in the Drag pull down menu top right of the Arrange window.

 

You can assign a key command to the "Go to Position" command (Alt+k to open Key commands window), type in the SMPTE start point, then select the region and use the "Pickup Clock" command to spot that region to the play head.

 

Any more?

[whospilgrim]

Cymbaline I think there is an option to assign the PT shortcuts to Logic. I think you have that choice when Logic first installs but I'm sure you can still do it. Not sure if that's what your getting at when referencing editing quick keys but I'm sure that it'd be helpful if your brain is trained to do PT shortcuts as 2nd nature.

 

That keyboard they make for the shortcuts is sick.... me wants the precious...

[Logic Pro]

its hard to edit automation in logic when you can not zoom resize a track large enough but only are able to zoom into sections.

 

the best way to also challenge the faders / volume level accuracy is by automation, draw a fade out, zoom in and then move your fader, witch the decimals skip rather then be as smooth as Pro Tools, when you have higher bandwidth and can hear more you can edit out anything causing cancellation with certain frequencies, this is where sweepable EQa or side chaining helps boost frequencies maintain a balance in the mix.

 

Phase cancellation occurs when two signals of the same frequency are out of phase with each other resulting in a net reduction in the overall level of the combined signal. If two identical signals are 100% or 180 degrees out of phase they will completely cancel one another if combined. When similar complex signals (such as the left and right channel of a stereo music program) are combined phase cancellation will cause some frequencies to be cut, while others may end up boosted

[marcel72]

All the SSL desks I have worked on have had P&G faders, as do many other professional level consoles. On an SSL, they are at various times part of the audio path and part of the way you write automation into the mix computer, although that automation does not actually happen in the fader itself. Perhaps you mean PT's faders were designed to mimic SSL's VCA automation, which resolves to 0.1dB?

 

Logic's 7 bit fader resolution goes back to its MIDI roots, and there have been many years of discussion about this, including several viable workarounds.

 

I am a little confused about how phase cancellation relates to this discussion.

[Eric Cardenas]

Logic's 7 bit fader resolution goes back to its MIDI roots, and there have been many years of discussion about this, including several viable workarounds.

Exactly!

And with a controller I get 10 bits.

That's 1024 steps.

0.1 steps down to -25 dB.

 

I am a little confused about how phase cancellation relates to this discussion.

Join the club.

[Logic Pro]

not having accurate levels and coming across anything that goes out of phase makes it difficult on a mix., having great monitors is not enough, sometimes on vols and pans you need accurate levels.

[davidpye]

I'm finding it hard to make sense of what Logic Pro is saying here. It's not that I'm uneducated, or that I've not experienced Logics lower than standard fader resolution, or not experienced an SSL fader as I work on them daily (.

I just don't understand why it matters as I've NEVER heard the lower resolution fader, I've seen the numbers change by more than 0.1dB at a time, but I've never heard it any differently to an SSL fader or a protools fader.

 

I have no idea why we're talking about Phase cancelation. This thread is about audio editing functions.

[cymbaline]

uh yeah....ok. so what Im getting at is this, and I guess I have to have better resolution with my description of what Im looking for in Logic than it's fader resolution (bad joke I know!)....

 

IF I would like to edit a region lets say, I would like to (for example) press T and have it zoom in at the cursor (because I can click on a region and have the cursor be there instead of having to click on the timeline above, or jog the jog wheel on my controller), and then hit Control-E to split the region at the cursor, move my cursor in a bit and hit D to make a fade from the beginning, instead of constantly having to hit Esc to get to the tool that does that specific job. Remember, Im on laptop...with an AZERTY keyboard, so I dont have the keypad or regular settings (having to hit Shift to get to a number instead of an "é" adds an extra step into a lot of things....like toggling the mix and edit windows, but thats neither here nor there)

 

Do you see what Im getting at? Also, if I'm syncing up a video that has time code, I's like to place the video on the timeline at it's time code by having a "spot" mode, where I can type in the TC and have the video snap into place. Same with audio regions. I do a lot of post work and I would love to use Logic for it, but since these functions arent readily available to me, Ive gotta do all that in PT (thoguh I will often bounce out the edited audio into Logic and mix it there, then bring it back into PT...

 

So this is the type of thing I am trying to get at. Simple quick functions. I know you can use the PT keys in Logic, but when Logic doesnt have that function, that doesnt do me much good...

 

Thanks for the feedback!

[davidpye]

Did you read my other post to you about Spot mode. There isn't such a thing, but there are all the tools you need to do the same job.

[cymbaline]

ok, so that covers spot and shuffle.... but what I use most is zooming, cropping, and adding fades..all with key commands. And the high resilution is a good thing too....

 

 

I dont know if anyone has tried doing post work with video/audio syncing in Logic, bt I have to say its not an easy task... Ive been working on some olf TV shows that have three or four reels of analog tape that go to it, plus mono tapes of foreign language dubs, all of which need to be synced up with video thats been converted from NTSC into PAL and back again and pitch adjusted, and has pull ups and pull downs all throughout. For an episode thats about one hour long, Im getting to the point where its taking me about 45 min in PT. It would take me all day to do that in Logic. The simple fact that I can zoom in nd out with key commands, and make edits on the fly by clicking the cursor on the regions, pressing a key and moving on makes all the difference in the world.

 

Now, I am a Logic advocat, and I think that it is definetly the way of the future as far as audio production...not just sequencing. But Logic is going to have to step it up as far as editing goes in order to make that work. And why not? Its already got an arsenal of way better plug-ins than PT, nearly unlimited voices, the choice of just about any interface...or none at all for that matter! And HD capabilities without the extra expensive software. Do you want to get into details? PT wants you to buy the ability to bounce into mp3 format, even though you can easily convert your wavs or aiffs into mp3s in iTunes for free. They want you to spend $500 a pop on mediocre plug-ins, while Logic has great ones de facto. Plus, with Logic studio, you get all the jam packs, and all kinds of other great software for less than the price of a quazi-pro PT package (3 rack or M-Box "pro")...

 

So, with so many advantages over PT, why not just cover the other bases and leave no other option? Logic is already compatible with the whole FCP suite. PT in compatible with Avid...and I know a lot of video editors that cant remember the last time they used that....

 

So what do you think? Im eager to hear the opinions of people from all over, who all work in different fields.

 

Do keep in mind that most of the time I still use Logic. In fact I mainly use PT when working for other people, or when theres no other option. Im a logic man, ever since version 5! I just want to see it take over because of its usefulness, not because of its stronghold on the market (eh hem! cau-avid-augh!)....

[davidpye]

You can zoom in and out with key commands have you looked at the key commands window at all? You can assign keys to thousands of commands a lot that you can't even execute without using a key command. You can assign keys for zoom settings which you can recall a la protools, plus you can edit those zoom level. You can assign a key for crop commands too, for the fades either use the fade tool or the fade settings in the region info box, you can do as many as you like at once, and unlike pt set a custom fade in AND out for multiple regions at once.

The audio editing in the arrange window is sample accurate like tools, just hold down ctrl for fine adjustment or ctrl+shift for finer adjustment.

Any use?

[marcel72]

Although I know you can do everything in Logic that you can in PT, I'm with Cymbaline on this one. PT's handling of the recording, organizing, and editing of digital audio is just superior for my workflow, as it sounds like it is for his.

 

It's not any one thing, and there are plenty of ways in which I find Logic superior, but I can do many of the things I routinely do in much less time with PT. I don't use much MIDI. I don't use many plugins. I don't mix ITB. I don't do mastering. I record, edit, and mix audio, day in, day out.

 

I think it really comes down to this: PT was developed as a Digital Audio Workstation, from the beginning, and all Digi's resources were geared towards this part of development. Logic (actually Notator, but anyways) was developed primarily as a MIDI sequencer, and the audio functionality was added later. Ultimately, there's not denying who you are...

 

I wouldn't say I lose any sleep over this, though. I'm a capable user of both applications. And, really, if you want what PT does well...

 

Buy PT.

[davidpye]

I do totally agree with Marcel, I wasn't saying you shouldn't use protools. If it works better for you in a certain situation then use it. I do very often.

 

For me, when I'm doing anything but simply recording audio, some programming, sound design or production of any sort, I very quickly reach a stumbling point in Protools that would just take AGES to get round. So I use Logic.

When I'm in a studio with a TDM system, recording bands I use Protools as it does what I normally need to do very well and it's most compatible, or I use tape.

 

I think with few very small tweaks Logic could easily compete on the Audio front, all we need is a couple more editing commands, a mixer than we can use faster for moving channels around and selecting inputs and outputs etc etc. I hope Apple addresses these things in the next version.

[Logic Pro]

It is nice to see Logic has some fans but the reality is if you never worked with SSL then you do not understand what the whole picture here is, this technology of so called DAWS has been nothing but a race to re build a virtual reality of what is a conventional recording studio, Pro Tools is just that but Apple has been bringing it, graphics and video to the personal computer worls sicne, why Apple is a success.

 

Now, put aside the principles of what computers offer, the conventional studio environment consists of high end gear, delivering performance and transparent in your mix, unless of course you like the color of some of the toys (preamps, eqs, compressors etc) which also come with Channel strips., and most important of all, clean, smooth faders.

 

Pro Tools was and still is the only DAW out there at the moment who provides this., on one hand you have high end products becoming smaller while you can also look at it from the poor mans or musicians eyes as smaller end products getting better., you decide.

 

Pro Tools offers everything on the (HD) level the engineer and musician needs., now gets cheaper, more affordable.

 

Logic is affordable, offers entry level Engineers what they need, all the advance music production functions, fx but is not at the high end level to meet the Pro Environment, then again we all do not need time code, high res interfaces, high end monitors to compliment them etc just to make a great song.

 

When we are in 64bit i think you will notice a significant difference, i personally believe Apple already focused on this with the new version of Logic.

 

Conclusion here is if you need to do critical editing of vocals or sound designing then Pro Tools is for you, if track a live band, accept takes as they are, use loops, midi, Virtual Synths, basically write music, then Logic is for you, you can find interfaces that handle the tracks as well.

 

If you want both your left with 2 options, one is to use the apps the way i do, i use Logic with a low end LE or M powered Pro Tools set up ( 7.4 for now), v8 slags with Logic open., my solution works, i can use the HD system to track, clean up basic edits., then Logic at home, if i need to critically edit the session, i can open it in Pro Tools LE or MP and then export the files to Logic.

 

If you can afford it get the HD system, run logic with it its amazing, but aside the possibilities to be able to afford is the fact that your dragging around a interface, Digidesign hates to admit it but they do need a low end HD set up, with out PDC Pro Tools LE and M Powered are useless for music production., of course they could at least add PDC functions in the tool kit but un fortunately they want big rooms who do tv and radio to pay them a cut of there tax expenses.

[davidpye]

but the reality is if you never worked with SSL then you do not understand what the whole picture here is,

 

I was saying that I use an SSL most days so do know the whole picture here. Logic's faders are fine, I just don't see your point, they don't have 127 point resolution as they can be controlled to a far finer level using a controller, numerically they just read a lower resolution, but the sound is the same as any other fader.

 

I think you're wrong about how absolutely amazing PT HD is too, again I use it daily and dont think it has any sonic benefits over logic at all. I think the interfaces that you're LIMITED to if you want to use protools aren't the best available and there are far better interfaces available for a native system. TDM is massively out of date and hugely underpowered.

A new mac pro Nehalem based system can run double the amount of Dverb plugins an HD 7 system can, and considering Protools is really inefficient at handling multiple processors and RTAS performance is pathetic compared to AU or VST, that's quite a bit more money's worth for the mac pro considering an HD7 system would cost in excess of $25,000!!!!

 

I think things are about to change big time, Protools has had it's day, I think Logic 9 is coming soon and as long as it brushes up its basic audio editing features it'll be a run away winner compared to protools. Digidesign are forever spending time and money making sure tools runs on Windows, they can't take advantage of anything Coreaudio or OS X has to offer. It's a joke.

 

Anyway, this thread isn't really a Protools vs Logic debate, and we're turning it into one, which isn't on.

[whospilgrim]

 

Anyway, this thread isn't really a Protools vs Logic debate, and we're turning it into one, which isn't on.

 

Con-tools vs. Logic Slo

 

 

Just stirrin' the beans..

[Logic Pro]

 

Anyway, this thread isn't really a Protools vs Logic debate, and we're turning it into one, which isn't on.

 

Con-tools vs. Logic Slo

 

 

Just stirrin' the beans..

evidently in the end of the day they are the 2 most used programs ( STudio wise) aside "Live" which sort of is pushing for innovation