Appropriate Frequency Range For Instruments Query

[JDS1]

I'm curious to know the typical frequency ranges to use for different instruments in electronic/computer music, in relation to music by Deadmau5, Justice, Royksopp, Erol Alkan, Armin Van Buren, MSTRKRFT etc.

 

I know a lot variance occurs between different artists, songs, the instruments used, and arrangement etc, but it'd be helpful to know an approximation for such, to give a outline of where different instruments usually sit.

 

1.) Do you place H.P.Fs & L.P.Fs on each instrument to a specific point to exclude frequencies not typically used?

 

2.) How much overlap usually occurs between different instruments, and what is done to separate them when this occurs (apart from panning)?

 

3.) Could you give some examples of frequency ranges vs instruments for particular genres/artists/songs in relation to:

drums - kick, snare/claps, hats, toms, cymbals

bass - synth, electric

electric guitar

vocals

keys - piano, clav, synth

other/misc.

 

Thanks for your help,

 

Kind Regards,

 

JDS1

[shivermetimbers]

I'm curious to know the typical frequency ranges to use for different instruments in electronic/computer music, in relation to music by Deadmau5, Justice, Royksopp, Erol Alkan, Armin Van Buren, MSTRKRFT etc.

 

I know a lot variance occurs between different artists, songs, the instruments used, and arrangement etc, but it'd be helpful to know an approximation for such, to give a outline of where different instruments usually sit.

 

1.) Do you place H.P.Fs & L.P.Fs on each instrument to a specific point to exclude frequencies not typically used?

 

2.) How much overlap usually occurs between different instruments, and what is done to separate them when this occurs (apart from panning)?

 

3.) Could you give some examples of frequency ranges vs instruments for particular genres/artists/songs in relation to:

drums - kick, snare/claps, hats, toms, cymbals

bass - synth, electric

electric guitar

vocals

keys - piano, clav, synth

other/misc.

 

Thanks for your help,

 

Kind Regards,

 

JDS1

 

Be serious, no one is going to type out a Mixing 101 lesson. There is plenty of info on this topic on the Net.

 

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/images/main_chart.jpg

[JDS1]

Well your response was pretty good,

that's what i'm looking for.

 

Is there a legend for that graph?

[shivermetimbers]

It's on the Net.

 

http://www.hometracked.com/2006/12/07/instrument-frequency-map/

[fader8]

Is there a legend for that graph?

Yes, legend has it that it was originally penned by Ishmael Perlstein, a 12th century accountant who had a cleft pallet and walked with a limp. Apparently he interpreted it from some Bohemian sanskrit scribbled on the back of a cocktail napkin. So he doesn't get all the credit for it.

 

As for the graph itself, it would appear that the red shading within each instrument represents the fundamental tonal range the instrument is capable of, with the harmonics/overtones represented by the yellow. Beyond that, it's pretty self-explanatory.

[JDS1]

Mmmm Legendary.

[JDS1]

Are there any texts worth buying/downloading,

or are there some good sites for everything "mixing" and "production" etc?

 

 

 

F.Y.I.

 

(while we're conversing in some wholesome forum fun)

 

It looks like your friend George Massenburg stole and appropriated for this own ends,

Leonardo Da Vinci's quote "Art is never finished, only abandoned".

Which would have been just fine, and clearly more universal.

[fader8]

Are there any texts worth buying/downloading,

or are there some good sites for everything "mixing" and "production" etc?

"Mixing and production" covers quite a bit of different audio crafts. If you could be more specific, we'd likely be able to recommend something.

 

 

I

t looks like your friend George Massenburg stole and appropriated for this own ends,

Leonardo Da Vinci's quote "Art is never finished, only abandoned".

Which would have been just fine, and clearly more universal.

 

He's been known to take liberties with other peoples stuff. That's sometimes part of what mixing's all about!

[JDS1]

So the quote is a remix? : )

 

 

Well i guess in terms of mixing i'd like to know concepts/techniques on getting the instruments working well together at the final stage, but more importantly, how to shape the individual parts for their use in the song to start with, depending on it's role in the song, the genre of music etc.

 

Production-wise i'd rather something regarding more practical "ideas" than technical aspects, because i think ideas of songs are more important (how you should approach a certain type of song etc) as the technical side can be worked out.

Erol Alkan talks about some texts he got recently along those lines written by repected producers etc, but i'm not sure what/who they were. They're more about the approach to electronic music than the detailed procedures etc.

 

Overall though i'd just like as much useful information I can get from the people "in the know" or who are well respected and prominient figures.

[Kent Sandvik]

There are so many variations related to this whole problem so the only qualified way is to listen to the whole mix with your ears and a do appropriate adjustments. Or then you sometimes want to have an artistic flair and totally avoid any known rules.

 

My only advice is to listen to productions you like (for me it is the later day XTC records that sound so sweet with the guitar productions) and try to learn from those how they were done.

 

There are some ad hoc solutions I do automagically, such as always cut of the low-range for non-bass/drum instruments, around 100 or 140 Hz (who needs the rumble from those instruments) and so on...

[JDS1]

It's tips like that last one that are useful,

except i'd like 1 000 000 of them etc. : )

 

i guess ill just look up amazon, and second-hand book stores etc,

it's usually pretty easy to tell if something's useful or not.

[Kent Sandvik]

EQ magazine has from time to time good articles about the mixing/production process.

 

Here's another one. The range around 2kHz is the nemesis for most engineers. The human ear, by evolution, is most sensitive in this area.

 

Also, I do think the way to get good guitar sounds is to work a lot on the mid-range, that's where the magic or no magic happens.

[JDS1]

Magazines are useful, but they're very "bits and pieces" type information.

I get Computer Music and Future Music Magazines.

There's loads of rubbish advertising for "products", but every so often they have a special on one particular area of production/mixing/techniques etc.

 

I guess what i'm looking for to compliment that information, is the broad stroke information, and the approach to beginning the work, to "rules", do's and don'ts I need to know before I start laying anything down, and editing / tweaking, i think having a clear idea to start with, then having a broad understanding of what you need to do to lay it down, will help counteract reworking something to until you're bored of it.

 

A "Measure twice, cut once" kind of approach, it'll only come with experience, but i need some texts covering a wide area, but also in depth to accelerate it along quicker.

 

I've learned exponentially by getting in the deep end and messing around, plus reading as much as possible in the process. But i think it's time to actually read and "learn" the stuff i should know if i want to have something that is on the same playing field (sound quality-wise) as the respected/known producers/artists.

 

So if there's any recommended readings just suggest them and i'll have a look.

[fader8]

JDS1,

The first thing you need to do is focus. You keep talking about production techniques and mixing as if they were the same skillset. They're not. Production techniques range from MIDI programming to sound design to arranging to mic placement, etc., whereas mixing is the practice of preserving those techniques effectiveness within the song or enhancing them and making them work together. These are very different crafts and some folks can excel at one and fail miserably at the other.

 

If you look at a typical music production curriculum at a music college, you'll quickly realize just how segregated these are. You would do well to take some classes actually. So if you pick someplace to start, we can better recommend materials to you. There is a lot out there but it's all very focused at specific skills. In the meantime, learn everything you can about Logic. Understanding your tools is fundamental to any of it. Check out the Tips & Tricks forum here on LPH. Lots of stuff regarding production techniques and mixing in there.

[JDS1]

How about a comprehensive reading in relation to shaping sounds into their particular "roles" for a song for electronic music in the style/genre i want to make?

 

e.g. bass synth, electric basses - where do they sit in the mix, is panning allowed for this instrument's role in the song?, eq (cutoff certain frequencies, add/minus db for certain areas),

 

e.g. kick drum (electric/acoustic) - how should they be treated with compression, where do they sit in the mix, typical eqs etc.

 

Other than using my ear, how can I analyze what's going on in that music?

Can you import a song into Logic and analyze it?

[Kent Sandvik]

A couple of thoughts.

 

In electronic music, trends come and go, within months. I doubt side-channel compression is that big anymore. Most of the tricks are self-discoverable, actually to make something fresh you need to invent your own production techniques, rather than sounding like yet another Daft Punk clone.

 

Secondly, the whole notion of arrangements or mixing in electronic music has never settled down on a formula concerning pans and placements. Anything goes.

 

That's the charm with electronic music. Also the curse, I think, as people spend far too much time worrying about the production sound while the song itself stinks due to little craftmanship concerning writing songs.

[JDS1]

I definitely agree, i don't want to clone anyone

not only for the fact that it's already done,

but they're already doing it better than you could,

plus you'd always be following rather than leading in a new direction.

 

but i'm sure there's alot of information about mixing techniques/theories etc that covers most genres.

 

one thing for instance is the final sound when playing live,

how do i originally produce the parts/samples, say for bass,

so that when playing live i know it's going to be "felt" by the listener,

as opposed to just being a melodic sound. at what frequency will this occur?

and how do you check if all the sounds combined will or wont create weird phasing?

 

is it really just a simple comparison between your stuff and "established" music on both headphones and home monitors? i know that'd be a final check, but it's the setting of it in the first place that i want to know about, to know if i'm aiming in the right direction.

[Matt Mayfield]

My advice: Less talk, more rock (or electronica if you like)

[JDS1]

I absolutely know as a fact that "talking" and "doing" are different things.

but you can't "do" without "knowing".

 

All i'm doing in this forum is asking for links towards credible sources of information in relation to what i'm trying to learn.

 

Am I missing the point of these forum websites?

I thought it was meant for tracking down useful information,

not adding more of the useless type.

It's obvious that you either don't know of any resources i'm looking for,

or you just dont care to share them.

 

You could spend your life looking through the internet sifting through it all,

i thought i'd try and use a forum, and there-in people who "ought" to know what they're talking about to point towards the useful stuff.

 

...and i'd suggest, less comments, and more valid answers.

 

(what a waste of time this has been!)

[Kent Sandvik]

 

one thing for instance is the final sound when playing live,

how do i originally produce the parts/samples, say for bass,

so that when playing live i know it's going to be "felt" by the listener,

as opposed to just being a melodic sound. at what frequency will this occur?

and how do you check if all the sounds combined will or wont create weird phasing?

 

is it really just a simple comparison between your stuff and "established" music on both headphones and home monitors? i know that'd be a final check, but it's the setting of it in the first place that i want to know about, to know if i'm aiming in the right direction.

 

I don't know of any other practical way of getting the right sub-bass levels than using a club PA and figure out what works and what not. The club systems are so different from near-field monitors, or headphones.

 

There are some simple rules such as never, ever, never use stereo for low frequencies. First a human ear can't hear stereo with low frequencies, but worst of all any stereo that is then pumped out as mono signals on club systems might cause phase problems that actually take down the amount of energy in the low-range.

 

You could get somewhat closer by examination of songs you know work well in clubs, look at the signal with for example Logic's monitoring plug-ins, so see how it's done.

 

I also suspect that the trick to really get a good low end is the use of multi-band compressors on various tracks, bass et rest. That's what I did in my former life as dance music producer (for a few years...) But again, the best is to test this out and see how things work with various settings.

 

Go over to Audiotuts.com -- they have plenty of articles about this all.

 

I still wish young producers spent more time thinking about hooks, structure of songs, good melodies, micro-hooks in productions, how Beatles figured out most of the formulas used today, and stuff like that...

[fader8]

How about a comprehensive reading in relation to shaping sounds into their particular "roles" for a song for electronic music in the style/genre i want to make?

Cool, that's very specific to sound design/synthesis.

 

A decent beginners book:

http://www.noisesculpture.com/htman.html

More advanced:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/allsynthsecrets.htm

Heavier reading:

http://www.amazon.com/Theory-Technique-Electronic-Music/dp/9812700773/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252472806&sr=8-3

Online class:

http://www.berkleemusic.com/school/course?course%5fitem%5fid=1325180&usca%5fp=t&offer%5fcode=2285

 

The Sound On Sound article archives are truly a wealth of information in electronic music production and sound design. If the genre you want to work in is dance music, there are also some decent books specific to that available. I'll dig up their names if you want them.

[JDS1]

That's some good advice/tips/references etc, thanks : )

 

 

As far as what you said in the passage outlined below:

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(I still wish young producers spent more time thinking about hooks, structure of songs, good melodies, micro-hooks in productions, how Beatles figured out most of the formulas used today, and stuff like that...)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't agree more, that's basically all i've concentrated on since starting to play music and create it. I've done a lot of analysis on songwriting, going back to Dylan, Beatles & Beach Boys, though to Springsteen, 80's electro-pop, Killers, Kings of Leon.

I used that stuff to figure out song progression, but applied some interesting chord changes i've learned from the classical music of chopin, beethoven, rachmanninov etc.

 

But from all the songwriting theory i've learned from the listed music above, it doesn't much apply to some of the music i've been listening to, house stuff for example has a lot of "riff" based loops mainly bass lines, trance has drawn out chords, a lot of it is just basically reapeating the tonic chord for 90% of the song. It's interesting trying to find out how my previous songwriting can be made into electronic music. but i think there lies the opportunity for a new sound. so i'm still trying to figure it out.

 

So, without the availability to have a platform for producing/recording my ideas, or having others to create music with, and my growing passion for electronic music,

It became clear to try something different.

It's only since this year I've realised the only way for me to go forward is with electronic music (not standard rock band)whereby I only require myself, a computer and a daw etc.

 

the hardest thing for me now is to figure out which "sounds" to use for which parts shaping them, how to create those sounds, and produce/mix it to a quality level.

Plus the possiblities are endless as far as technical melodies/sounds are concerned with daw's, which would never be able to be produced in a typical "band" with normal instruments set up.

 

Performance of this music is another story altogether, but i'm going to use abelton, with maybe an apc40/mixer, still weighing that side up though. trying to figure out a way to perform and not just press play.

 

So yes, as a young producer i'm thinking about more things than just getting more bass etc : )

[JDS1]

sorry for the length of that biography : )

[Kent Sandvik]

Dance music is 90% rhythm and 10% orchestration. Me thinks best is to study African and South American rhythms for those kinds of projects.

 

Maybe one day electronic music also grows up and starts using more interesting structures. Then again it is designed for Friday/Saturday evenings, pumping hundreds of dBs into the ears of dancers going half-way to a trance state...

[JDS1]

i think it's the logical progression for music.

i just see electronic music as using modern technology,

it doesn't have to lack musicality, if anything it should promote it,

as the possibilities are endless as i mentioned before,

as it can perform function the human hand and instrument can't.

but that said it requires the "human" element involved for spontanaity and an "in-the-moment" response when performing live for communication with the audience.

I see it as the modern day "classical music" where you're the conductor,

and because most of it is simply music, it's not word-based. That's another reason why electronic music appeals to me, is the fact you can have interesting melodies that in essence are the vocals, or are in place of them.

There are progressive-instrumental rock band which try this, but the actual sound and complexity isn't quite enough to be exciting to my ear anyway. Plus i think why acts like deadmau5 and justice appeal to today's crowd is because of the lack of attention span people have coupled with the advent of better technology, thus giving crazy sounds, blips, micro-sampling.

[Kent Sandvik]

i

I see it as the modern day "classical music" where you're the conductor,

and because most of it is simply music, it's not word-based. That's another reason why electronic music appeals to me, is the fact you can have interesting melodies that in essence are the vocals, or are in place of them.

There are progressive-instrumental rock band which try this, but the actual sound and complexity isn't quite enough to be exciting to my ear anyway. Plus i think why acts like deadmau5 and justice appeal to today's crowd is because of the lack of attention span people have coupled with the advent of better technology, thus giving crazy sounds, blips, micro-sampling.

 

Yes, sorry but I don't think micro-sampling blips and deadmau5 stuff is that exciting. Anyone with fingers could quickly put together similar stuff, hundreds of hours of music. What happens with this kind of music is that is is produced, released and forgotten. Very transient stuff.

 

It's a good example where production and programming has taken over music production, rather than thinking in more artistic elements like pop music or classical music used to do.

[JDS1]

it's pretty subjective though.

i went through the whole (trying to make something that lasts forever) mentality,

but without being a singer or lyricist i find that hard to fathom happening, even still nothing ever lasts forever. And i dont want to make music for people in the future, i want to make music for people living now, and myself, and evolve over time to what that'll be. i find it more restrictive thinking in terms of "forever" music. i hope the melodies and progressions i'll make will be ever lasting though, which by default will be. it's when you start adding lyrics that it becomes a whole other thing. but i think if it's not copying something else, it'll stand the test of time. there's been electronic music albums which have become classics.

 

i'm not planning on writing dull weekend music.

trying to get head in a new direction which trys to take elements of all types of music into consideration. it's my only way of making music as its hard as hell finding collaborators etc.

[untitled1100]

dull weekend music

 

hey, i listened to some justice, daft punk and yuksek last night!

 

--------------

 

JDS1, I think you need to stop theoretisizing everything, of course it is reallly important (not to mention very interesting) to know what's going on with frequencies etc, crucial in fact if you're leaning more towards the engineering/mixing side of things. But from your posts and mini biography I'm getting the impression you're more trying to be a creator. Definitely keep on researching this, but I would suggest focusing more on what Kent was talking about: the artistic elements.

 

Also, don't think of vocals as something entirely different. You may not be a lyricist, but that doesn't mean you can't at least write/compose/think of the melody of the vocals... try thinking of it as if you were writing the lead part for flute or guitar or whatever.. write simple melodies first then see if you can write lyrics to em. you never know you might discover the inner poet in you..!

 

There have been some good resources suggested, check em out for technical info, there's a hell of a lot to look into. good luck and have fun

 

and cheers shivers for the frequency map you posted early on

[JDS1]

what i was saying was that i feel i have the "artistic" side,

but at the moment it's not able to be accessed properly until i figure out the "tech" side of things as i'm new to daw production/engineering/mixing etc.

it's amazing how quickly it's developing though.

i was just asking for those resources as i dont have a whole lot of time in front of my home computer to mess around with it, therefore getting some good reading in before i get home from work.

 

i might think of the vocals side of things once the quality is up to scratch to have someone come record something etc. samples might work though.

 

 

thanks for the advice.

[fader8]

Definitely keep on researching this, but I would suggest focusing more on what Kent was talking about: the artistic elements.

I'd have to agree with this. Being jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none, rarely gets anyone a gig or the best quality result. Yes, it's important to be "well-rounded" as it's important to be conversant, but if you keep trying to be fabulous at everything, there will always be someone else who can run circles around you on some skill, and you would have been better off hiring them in the first place.

 

 

the hardest thing for me now is to figure out which "sounds" to use for which parts shaping them, how to create those sounds, and produce/mix it to a quality level.

I think you're still jumping ahead a bit. The questions you're asking about instrumentation, frequencies, etc., are essential elements of composition, orchestration and arranging. Not really production. For electronic music, add synthesis/sound design and MIDI programming to those. Focusing your efforts on these will do a lot more for your music than immersing yourself in the world of post-production, mixing and mastering right now. Quite frankly, if you get the song, instrumentation and arranging right, the song will mix itself.

 

Any one of the skills mentioned here is complicated enough and commonly have whole careers devoted to them. The risk of choking is just too high when you bite off more than you can chew.

 

(Yikes, there's way too many metaphors in this post!)

 

what i was saying was that i feel i have the "artistic" side,

but at the moment it's not able to be accessed properly until i figure out the "tech" side of things as i'm new to daw production/engineering/mixing etc.

 

Right, good, but . . . from what you've said here, it sounds like you need more help with "music" tech and not necessarily "production/engineering/mixing etc.", tech. With that said, there's a fairly recent thread here that you should read:

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=44385

And while it's primarily about orchestration, the OP's situation is similar to yours and much of the same wisdom applies.