Logic 9.01 and memory a close look

[Nick Phoenix]

I just loaded my Logic Template in Logic 9.01. It behaves badly because Logic is using 1.5 gigs of actual ram and 3.7 gigs of virtual ram. I deleted ALL my plug ins and now Logic uses 700 megs of ram and 2.8 gigs of virtual ram. That's an astronomical load for just an empty template. After some tests I have determined that Logic behaves badly when more than 3.5 gigs of virtual ram is used. So that leaves me 700 megs of VIRTUAL (not actual) ram to work with in my project. That is absolutely not enough to do anything. Everyone please let Apple know, in a calm fashion, that this is not something we can work with.

[mconnelly]

That's pretty much what I've been seeing, L9 gives memory warnings between 1.3 and 1.8 gigs of ram, which is ridiculously low.

 

Nick, have you had any luck getting PLAY to use external memory space? Supposedly it doesn't start using external memory until Logic is full, but now it looks like Logic is crashing before PLAY has a chance to start doing it. Is there any chance that PLAY will get updated to start using external memory sooner (or even a user pref to do it sooner if not right away)? There was word that a PLAY update for 10.6 was in progress, but no word about that for a few weeks. Have the EW guys been in touch with Apple about this?

 

I'd love to see Apple make a fix, but I'm not holding my breath - I'm hoping some of the 3rd parties make some adjustments when that's possible, particularly ones that are able to run in their own memory space (Kontakt seems able to load way more than PLAY with Logic 9 since the use of external memory kicks in way sooner).

 

And Apple REALLY needs to get on the ball with a 64 bit version of Logic. One of the Logic devs said the app has been Cocoa for years now, so what's the hold up?

[Nick Phoenix]

PLAY is using some external ram even when streaming inside of Logic. It doesn't make a huge difference. You can load any instrument into ram, but it just doesn't help that much, because the interface and program information still use Logic's ram. The fact is there is almost nothing available inside of Logic for instruments. Apple will have to make Logic 9 more efficient, or lose all it's pro customers. I'm sure they are working on it.

[PaulLawler]

PLAY is using some external ram even when streaming inside of Logic. It doesn't make a huge difference. You can load any instrument into ram, but it just doesn't help that much, because the interface and program information still use Logic's ram. The fact is there is almost nothing available inside of Logic for instruments. Apple will have to make Logic 9 more efficient, or lose all it's pro customers. I'm sure they are working on it.

 

Hello Nick,

 

So would it make no difference if I downloaded the EW Orchestra sounds into Kontakt 4 with its Memory Server ?

[mconnelly]

Are you sure that PLAY is using external ram under L9? The more instruments I load, the more ram Logic uses (a large amount for each new instrument, it's definitely loading some sample data into Logic's memory space, not just interface and program info/settings), and I don't see any sign that external memory is being used at all. Is there some way to tell? When I look in Activity Monitor, I see ousiad, which I assume is the PLAY code, but it never uses more than a few megs of memory.

 

Trying to load PLAY instruments, I'm getting memory errors and crashes with about 30 Platinum keyswitches loaded in 16 bit with many keyswitch layers disabled.

 

In comparison, Kontakt is able to load a huge amount of instruments into L9. So far I have loaded 64 big keyswitch instruments (EWQLSO platinum), over 3 gigs of samples (which shows up in the Kontakt menu display as well as Activity Monitor as KxMemServer0), and Logic is only at about 850MB in AM. It's obvious that external memory is being used, and it seems to be working well.

 

SImilarly, I tested out the new Vienna Ensemble Pro which also loads up samples to external memory - VE had over 2 gigs of samples loaded to its memory space, but Logic was under 300MB (!) memory use in AM.

 

How are you able to verify that PLAY is actually using external memory? Could you double check that you are seeing the external memory use on your system?

 

There's no question that Logic 9 is a ram pig, but if PLAY really does use external memory, it should be able to get around the ram limitations (at least to some degree) like Kontakt and Vienna are.

[Larry Mal]

My intention isn't to troll or to upset anybody unnecessarily, but I came across this demonstration of the 64 bit Sonar working on a 64 bit Windows 7, with all the plug ins accessing their own RAM explained:

 

http://emusician.com/videos/product_demos/cakewalk_sonar_session/

 

I was very disappointed that Logic hadn't gone 64 bit with either version 9 or with Snow Leopard. There were a lot of folks around here saying it wasn't important, and would cause more trouble than it was worth, that it was socialist to go to 64 bit- wait, I'm confusing my Luddites.

 

I started doing a mix in Digital Performer 7, no better there. System overloads all over the place.

 

Logic 9 simply crashes out of existence when I don't tiptoe around it- I find myself twitching out the old "Apple-S" in my fevered dreams.

 

Anyway, I did find this on the Eastwest forum which may have some information:

 

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=23950

 

Good luck.

[mconnelly]

I saw that thread, basically the impression I got was users saying they couldn't tell that PLAY was using external ram and that they were running out of memory in Logic but still had plenty of ram on the machine free...and the response wasn't much more than trust us, even though it doesn't seem like it's working, it really is.

 

Sorry, but when my app is running out of memory so early and I'm seeing no sign that external ram is actually being used, that's pretty hard to believe. If EW is going to use external ram, it would also be great to have a display somewhere in the PLAY interface that showed how much ram all PLAY instances are using, and how much of that is external.

 

One interesting comment from that thread is "You haven't exceeded the host memory yet" which seems to mean that PLAY doesn't start using any external ram until Logic runs out - if it is set for a certain threshold (say 2+ gigs) or if it is determining that point based on how L8 worked, I can see how the feature could completely stop working in L9, and require a fix to PLAY. I'm not sure why they wouldn't just start using external memory right away (like Kontakt seems to do) or at least make that an option, it would seem like that could be a fairly easy potential fix (assuming that the use of external ram does work otherwise).

 

To follow up on my post above, I kept loading up Kontakt and finally got a memory warning from Logic when Kontakt had 7.68 gigs of samples loaded. At that point Logic was using 1.65 gigs real ram, 2.09 virtual. The mac had 92 megs free ram, 711 megs inactive - so Kontakt was able to use almost all of the 12 gigs on my machine even with Logic 9's worse ram limitation. This was on 10.6.1, haven't tried the same on 10.5.8.

 

For reference, this session had just about every instrument in the kontakt version of Platinum loaded, all keyswitches when available, and all three mic positions. I ran out of platinum instruments and kontakt was still going so I started loading instruments from RA and was able to load every instrument about midway through Europe before I finally got the warning. I didn't count, but probably 200+ instruments total (on Platinum, each mic position is counted as a separate instrument). That's a pretty insane amount of material (although a 64 bit app would allow even more).

 

There's no question that Logic 9 handles memory way worse than 8 did. But there's also no question that some third party instruments are able to load a huge amount of samples anyway. PLAY claims to be able to do it, but under L9 I just don't see the feature working.

[Ashermusic]

There's no question that Logic 9 handles memory way worse than 8 did. .

 

Mike you can keep posting that on as many forums as you like but there is a lot of question about it, based on what me and some other LA based tv/film composers have found.

 

What there IS no question about:

 

1. LP9 requires a little more memory on load up. An empty project in LP8 with 1 un-instantiated software instrument track defaults to 179.5 MB Real Memory and 1.27 GB Virtual Memory while in LP9 it defaults to 195.8 MB Real Memory and 1.87 GB Virtual Memory. But LP9 gives some of that back as needed. This perhaps is why you sometimes get a low memory warning but nonetheless you can continue to work.

 

2. Quitting Logic and re-loading a project frees up some available memory.

 

3. EXS24, Kontakt 3.5/4, and Play all do their outside memory addressing differently and perhaps Play is not doing it as well as the other 2.

 

4. Something is not working as well on Nick's more powerful rig as my less powerful one and when I go to his studio tomorrow I will try to get to the bottom of it.

 

And if you think I am wrong about this, then perhaps you will explain how as I write this, I am running a project on my now lowly previous generation Quad Core w/ 13 GB RAM: 27 EXS24s (big instruments); 18 Kontakt 4s; 1 Omnisphere; 1 Stylus RMX; 1 SD2 with 4 instruments loaded (Play) ; 4 UAD FX plug-ins

 

Now am I saying it is practical to use all that in LP9 ? Of course not, but nor is it in LP8. In fact, it crashes LP8, but that may be partly caused by the fact that the template was created in LP9.

[mconnelly]

1. LP9 requires a little more memory on load up. An empty project in LP8 with 1 un-instantiated software instrument track defaults to 179.5 MB Real Memory and 1.27 GB Virtual Memory while in LP9 it defaults to 195.8 MB Real Memory and 1.87 GB Virtual Memory. But LP9 gives some of that back as needed. This perhaps is why you sometimes get a low memory warning but nonetheless you can continue to work.

 

Logic 8 crashed when it hit about 2.7 gigs, L9 crashes between 1.3 and 1.8 gigs. That's a huge difference (and a much bigger factor than the "little more memory to load up"). Are you seeing different results? What is the max you see on L9 when it crashes due to running out of memory?

 

2. Quitting Logic and re-loading a project frees up some available memory.

 

I'm not seeing that, maybe it's something specific to a plugin you are using. I have generally seen the opposite - when a session is maxed out, quitting and reopening often opens the session with several plugins disabled.

 

3. EXS24, Kontakt 3.5/4, and Play all do their outside memory addressing differently and perhaps Play is not doing it as well as the other 2.

 

I'd certainly agree with that, although that's a separate issue to L8 vs L9.

 

4. Something is not working as well on Nick's more powerful rig as my less powerful one and when I go to his studio tomorrow I will try to get to the bottom of it..

 

I suspect it's due to him using different plugins than you are, I assume probably more PLAY in his case and less ESX and Kontakt. Let me know if you're able to tell if PLAY is using external ram, I haven't seen anyone report that the feature is working with L9.

 

And if you think I am wrong about this, then perhaps you will explain how as I write this, I am running a project on my now lowly previous generation Quad Core w/ 13 GB RAM: 27 EXS24s (big instruments); 18 Kontakt 4s; 1 Omnisphere; 1 Stylus RMX; 1 SD2 with 4 instruments loaded (Play) ; 4 UAD FX plug-ins

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First, EXS and Kontakt are using external memory so they seem to be managing to avoid L9's worse handling of memory. That's great, but that's not a fix for all the other plugins, nor does it change the fact that L9 has a smaller memory footprint than L8. See above - I was able to load almost 8 gigs of samples using Kontakt since it loads all sample data outside of Logic's memory footprint, working around L9's lower memory limits.

 

And second, "gee that's a lot" is meaningless and irrelevant to the issue of L8 vs L9. Load up a session that maxes out L8 and see if it still opens on L9 and vice versa, (particularly one that's not using ESX and Kontakt, although if you try and use all 13 gigs, Logic will probably max out before Kontakt will).

 

If you have any PLAY libraries, that's an easy way to test. Load up a test session with every PLAY instrument you have on L8 and L9. To speed things up, put each instrument on a separate instance of PLAY (what EW recommends). If you want to hit that limit even sooner, crank up the PLAY buffer and turn off disk streaming, you'll crash Logic in no time.

 

In fact, it crashes LP8, but that may be partly caused by the fact that the template was created in LP9.

 

If you think that version compatibility may be causing the crash, then you need to rule that out before using that as the basis for a comparison.

 

A question to anyone else here - have you been able to load more on L9, or was L8 able to load more? I have asked this before, and I haven't yet seen anyone else say that L9 lets them load more. Anyone?

[PaulLawler]

I wish somebody could get to the bottom of this. I dont know what spec Nicks system is but on mine L9 uses 205MB Real and 1.89GB Virtual and I cannot load nearly what I can in L8.(not including Kontakt 4 in this) Yes I get the low memory warning in L9 but then it crashes or crosses out piles of Plugins which is just utterly pointless as I have to reboot and reload taking more time away from deadlines.

 

Could it be that its just performing better on Quads ? I'd be interested to hear your results at Nicks studio Ashermusic because its really frustrating.

[mconnelly]

Paul, here's a quote in response from this issue on another forum from Markus Fritze, who has been working on the Logic team for 18 years, take from it what you will...

 

That can always happen when you push the app to the limit. Almost every new feature - no matter how small - cost a bit of memory, every software update, 3rd party driver can eat just enough bytes to no longer allow you to open something, you could in the past.

 

http://macosxaudio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46787&start=30

[PaulLawler]

Well in that case I guess its time to start thinking about Cubase :-/

[Ashermusic]

OK , I went different route and created a new project in LP 8.0.2. I loaded 1 EXS24; 3 Kontakt 4s; 1 Addictive Drums; 1 Stormdrum 2 (Play) with 4 instruments loaded; 1 Stylus RMX with 6 patches loaded; I each of the following: Moog Modular, Omnisphere, Octopus, Crono X, Albino 3. Es1, Es2, EVP88, EVB3, EVD6, Sculpture, Ultrabeat.

 

It runs, with Activity Monitor showing Real Memory Size: 2.23 GB and Virtual Memory Size: 3.73 GB.

 

I quit Logic Pro 8.0.2.

 

I open it in Logic Pro 9.0.1. It runs, with Activity Monitor showing Real Memory Size: 1.71 GB and Virtual Memory Size: 3.71 GB.

 

This is essentially the same virtual memory and less real memory!

 

I need to make an unequivocal statement here: I have no dog in this hunt. I am not an Apple employee or fanboy. I am just trying to tell you guys my experience and the experience of some others here in LA. It could well be that a lot of the discrepancy is related to system specifics, choice of 3rd party AUs and libraries, etc.

 

But this is exactly what happened here.

[mconnelly]

Two things...

 

Was the session maxing out your ram on L8 (meaning it was all you could load, if you tried to load anything else it would either refuse to load it or crash)? If not, test with a session that maxes out L8.

 

And has been pointed out earlier, EXS and Kontakt are both using external ram, so they are both for the most part working around the ram limitations of Logic and won't tell you much in a comparison. Try a session that's fully loaded that either doesn't use either of those two plugs (ram hungry 3rd party plugs will probably max it out fastest), or disable virtual memory and kontakt memory server so they only use ram inside Logic.

[Fred B]

I need to make an unequivocal statement here: I have no dog in this hunt. I am not an Apple employee or fanboy.

But as an author and consultant you certainly have some interest that Logic 9 looks good..

[Ashermusic]

Two things...

 

Was the session maxing out your ram on L8 (meaning it was all you could load, if you tried to load anything else it would either refuse to load it or crash)? If not, test with a session that maxes out L8.

 

And has been pointed out earlier, EXS and Kontakt are both using external ram, so they are both for the most part working around the ram limitations of Logic and won't tell you much in a comparison. Try a session that's fully loaded that either doesn't use either of those two plugs (ram hungry 3rd party plugs will probably max it out fastest), or disable virtual memory and kontakt memory server so they only use ram inside Logic.

 

Yes, it was maxxed out.

 

2. I only had 1 EXS24 and 3 Kontakts. My guess there is almost nobody nowadays working with large amounts of instruments that are not using at least a little of those, so what you suggest would not be a real world test. Most of those complaining are trying to run large orchestral libraries and that is all pretty much EXS24, Kontakt, and Play.

 

But to make you more happy (perhaps), I will now run a test strictly with Omnispheres.

[mconnelly]

I'm interested in how Omnisphere works, and plan to try it myself when I have time.

 

I'd recommend doing a test of all PLAY as well so you can see that result.

[Ashermusic]

I'm interested in how Omnisphere works, and plan to try it myself when I have time.

 

I'd recommend doing a test of all PLAY as well so you can see that result.

 

OK, In LP 8.0.2 I opened a new project loaded 11 Omnispheres., perhaps the most RAM intensive of all 3rd party AUs.

 

With 11, with Activity Monitor showing Real Memory Size: 2.70 GB and Virtual Memory Size: 3.98 GB. Upon loading the 12th, it crashed.

 

I quit Logic Pro 8.0.2.

 

I open it in Logic Pro 9.0.1. It runs, with Activity Monitor showing Real Memory Size: 2.07 GB and Virtual Memory Size: 3.87 GB.

 

So both the virtual memory and real memory are less!

 

I load a 12th and get a low memory warning but I proceed anyway and load it. It plays and the virtual memory goes down to 3.63 GB! It appears that LogicPro9.0.1 is indeed giving some back.

 

I load a 13th. It plays and VM is backup to 3.87.

 

I try to load a 14th and I get the message "There is not enough free memory to continue working with this project. Logic will quit now, a copy of your project will be saved."

 

I let Logic quit and re-open the project. Now I can load the 14th and VM is 3.70, which proves to me what me, John Frizzell, and others have reported:if you quit Logic and re-open a project you can ad more to a project in LP 9.0.1. This is not true in LP 8.0.2.

 

So the bottom line is, on my rig, I can load more Omnispheres in LP 9.0.1 than in LP 8.0.2.

 

At this point, folks, I am done. I know what I conclude but each of you will have to do their own test and decide what you choose to conclude.

 

BTW, it could well be that Play does not perform as well in LP 90.1 as in LP 8.0.2 and that if I were to do a similar test with Play, I would get different results.

 

But even if so, that does not justify Mike's conclusion that "There's no question that Logic 9 handles memory way worse than 8 did."

[mconnelly]

I let Logic quit and re-open the project. Now I can load the 14th and VM is 3.70, which proves to me what me, John Frizzell, and others have reported:if you quit Logic and re-open a project you can ad more to a project in LP 9.0.1. This is not true in LP 8.0.2.

 

After you save the session and reopen it, are all 14 active and loaded, or are some disabled?

[Ashermusic]

I let Logic quit and re-open the project. Now I can load the 14th and VM is 3.70, which proves to me what me, John Frizzell, and others have reported:if you quit Logic and re-open a project you can ad more to a project in LP 9.0.1. This is not true in LP 8.0.2.

 

After you save the session and reopen it, are all 14 active and loaded, or are some disabled?

 

13 were loaded, then I added the other 1.

[mconnelly]

13 were loaded, then I added the other 1.

 

Right. Then after you save with 14 and reopen, all are present and active?

[Ashermusic]

13 were loaded, then I added the other 1.

 

Right. Then after you save with 14 and reopen, all are present and active?

 

Yep, although I get the low memory warning message at first.

[63strat]

This is all well and good, but why is it that maxed-out projects done in L8 will not open in L9? I have a idea about it. I have 2 film scores worth of L8 files that are too memory-intensive to open in L9. On any given file I have to disable some VIs in L8 in order for them to open in L9. So it seems that playing field is even here in that the same file that will open in L8 will not open in L9.

 

My conclusion is that in maxed-out files, the very slightly larger memory footprint of Logic 9 is enough to cause the issue, the last straw so to speak. In general, however, I think the 2 versions are actually very close is everyday usage. The new files I'm working on in L9 seem to be as large as those I was working on in L8. Don't forget, L9 is giving us a memory warning, whereas in L8 you would just get a straightforward crash (I do prefer the warning). Let's hope 64-bit is right around the corner and all this will be moot.

[Ashermusic]

This is all well and good, but why is it that maxed-out projects done in L8 will not open in L9? I have a idea about it. I have 2 film scores worth of L8 files that are too memory-intensive to open in L9. On any given file I have to disable some VIs in L8 in order for them to open in L9. So it seems that playing field is even here in that the same file that will open in L8 will not open in L9. .

 

Perhaps, but my guess is that if you then re-instantiated them LP 9 would give you back the memory and you not only could load them, but perhaps a little more.

[TTOZ]

the exs will just not use external memory for me on my 2009 quad with 6b or my 2008 quad with 16gb.. i started a separate topic about it.

[PaulLawler]

I did a quick test today ...the first since upgrading to 9.01

 

In L8 I managed to load 16 instances of Omnisphere (no FX) with the Adagio Fairissimo string preset. It crashed when I tried for 17. On 16 loaded the memory was :

2.58 real 3.99 Virtual

 

In L9 I can load 12 of the same, on the 13th I get the low memory warning but it saves and loads fine with no plug-ins disabled.

1.99 real 3.94 virtual

 

at 14 instaces I get another warning but now the memory has changed to :

2.13 real 3.61 virtual

 

15 instances is : 2.24 real 3.74 virtual

 

16 instances 2.37 real 3.89 virtual

 

The odd thing is, the first time I did this test it gave up on 15 instances in L9 with memory at: 2.58 real 3.99 virtual. This time around though I have been saving, rebooting L9 and reloading to make sure it opens everything and with 16 its fine.

However once it does say not enough memory to continue it doesnt open everything on rebooting, it starts to disable things.

 

So with this Omnisphere patch at least, and with 9.01 there isnt that much difference it seems, but this isnt what I have been experiencing when using a mix of 3rd party plugins. I suppose that could lead to endless tests to see which combination is giving the poorest results ?

[Musicianista]

What sample rates are you guys running in these tests?

44.1k?

48k?

88.2k?

etc, etc.

 

Surely this would impact on the results as well?

Just curious.

[mconnelly]

Just did an Omnisphere test.

 

L8 opened six with eight patches in each, then a seventh with six patches, then crashed (the first time I've had L8 crash testing this stuff out, every other time it just gives a message saying it can't load any more).

 

Opening the same session in L9, five of the Omnispheres open, the last two are disabled due to running out of memory. If I try to add another, Logic crashes.

 

I'm not sure why you are able to load more of them in L8, but that's not the case here - I have yet to find even one plugin that loads more on L9. All the tests I've tried are 44.1/24.

[Ashermusic]

Just did an Omnisphere test.

 

L8 opened six with eight patches in each, then a seventh with six patches, then crashed (the first time I've had L8 crash testing this stuff out, every other time it just gives a message saying it can't load any more).

 

Opening the same session in L9, five of the Omnispheres open, the last two are disabled due to running out of memory. If I try to add another, Logic crashes.

 

I'm not sure why you are able to load more of them in L8, but that's not the case here - I have yet to find even one plugi n that loads more on L9. All the tests I've tried are 44.1/24.

 

There is clearly something wrong on you rig as you have a more powerful one that mine and yet I can rum more, both in LP8 and LP9.

[mconnelly]

There is clearly something wrong on you rig as you have a more powerful one that mine and yet I can rum more, both in LP8 and LP9.

 

54 patches versus 112 is a big difference, but doesn't that depend on which Omni patches are loaded since they are all different sizes? I just went down the list of all patches and loaded in order.

 

It's possible there's something wrong with my rig, but that seems unlikely considering the large number of users who have posted here and elsewhere that they can load fewer instruments on 9 than 8 (do we ALL have something wrong with our rig?). Just look at this thread - you keep insisting that my results are an anomaly yet nobody else has posted saying they can load more in L9 like you can.

 

So I ask again, anyone able to load more in L9 than L8?