cgibbs Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Just curious about how the scoring features of Logic compare to a program like Finale. Does anyone use Logic for professional scoring? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcampbe3 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 I don't know of anyone who would prefer to use logic's score editor over something like Finale or Sibelius. Any professional orchetrators I've worked with or watched have used those programs. It really depends on what you're planning on doing and how often you'll need printed music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 I don't know of anyone who would prefer to use logic's score editor over something like Finale or Sibelius. Now you do! Fact is, there are lots of us who frequent this forum (and others) who use Logic's score editor exclusively for producing printed scores for all manner of professional work, from band charts to full orchestral scores. cgibbs, I think it would be helpful to know what your scoring needs are, i.e., what you're scoring for, whether you need specialized types of notation, etc. If what you need to do is beyond Logic's capabilities then myself and other Logic-score-editor-types wouldn't hesitate, I'm sure, to give you an honest opinion or advice to go to another program. Any professional orchetrators I've worked with or watched have used those programs. My experience is the same. The guys who do this for a living generally use Finale or Sibelius. But as you said... It really depends on what you're planning on doing and how often you'll need printed music. Couldn't agree more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgibbs Posted November 27, 2009 Author Share Posted November 27, 2009 Thanks for the thoughts. Sorry I wasn't more specific in my first post. I use Logic for pop/rock music production. I was actually asking on behalf of my Dad who would use it for just Piano/Vocal/Choral arranging only. He is looking into a few programs and was going to use logic already so I was curious if he would even need Finale. Thanks again for any thoughts you may have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 For what you described your Dad is doing I think Logic would be just fine. Hey, have your Dad join LPH -- we'd be happy to help him out if he has questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgibbs Posted November 28, 2009 Author Share Posted November 28, 2009 Yes. I will tell him to join. We have been going over Logic 101 today. Thanks again for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Music Spirit Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 For what you described your Dad is doing I think Logic would be just fine. Hey, have your Dad join LPH -- we'd be happy to help him out if he has questions. + 1 I wish I could get my Dad to use Logic - he sends his hand written scores to a copyist who puts them into Sibelius. I would do them for free but I am not really a classical type As Ski says, for what you describe Logic would be fine - I use Logic for jazz/rock/pop/latin arrangements for smallish horn + rhythm section bands/ensembles, vocalists, lead sheets and teaching materials. Also - it is essential to participate in some sort of online community in this day and age if you are using computers and software packages. There are just so many little things one doesnt quite get .. and this forum particularly is very very helpful. good luck and hope to see you here Music Spirit PS Here's a weird annecdote if anyone can bear a little off topic: I was reading a Score Editor article online in the UK magazine Sound on Sound... thinking 'uh yeah yeah .. I am a smartass who knows all this stuff" and suddenly I came across a completely *radical* piece of information: if you grab the end of a stave the mouse pointer turns into a hand and you can drag it up and down to adjust the space between the staves!!!!! .. it was like an early Xmas present.. (even though I usually celebrate only hanuka) "So what's the big deal" most of you score editor types will be saying '' we knew that years ago" - but this anecdote is to illustrate how even after somebody has used a program for years, some kind of essential chink of information just passed them by. And believe me I have RTM.. till I am blue in the face. All this to say that this kind of golden "nugget" of information is often traded freely and generously on the forums and as someone famous said, Man cannot live on the Bread manuals alone ( all the more so in the paperless age of Logic 9) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgibbs Posted November 28, 2009 Author Share Posted November 28, 2009 One last question guys. Maybe I should make a new topic for this but I will ask here first. We are working on just a piano score. We would like to have a low B2 note displayed top treble clef and not automatically jump to the bass clef. I've looked in the manual and tried several ideas but can't figure it out. I'm guessing that there is a setting somewhere that adjusts that breakpoint. We would just like to adjust that one note not globally. Thanks again for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer Moth Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 In Score under Layout>Staff Styles choose Split (B2) at the far right. Fore more varied exceptions look up Piano 1 + 3 etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgibbs Posted November 28, 2009 Author Share Posted November 28, 2009 Thanks. I found that when I changed the split to B2 it moved all the notes across the song. Is there a way to do just one note or a section of notes? I wasn't sure what you meant by look up piano 1 + 3 . Should I look that up here on the forum? or in the manual? Thanks again. I'm getting closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer Moth Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 Look in the manual,or on the forum. http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=31290 Should do the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 You can also try this link: http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=245855#245855 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgibbs Posted November 28, 2009 Author Share Posted November 28, 2009 Thanks for both links guys. I'm going to study up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimWinter Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Hey ski, I am wanting to use the score editor for actual composition and then use VSL for the audio.... I spoke with Jay Asher today and he did say that I could use the notation editor for most things, but if you get into some complicated scores I would have some problems. And I am correct in that dynamics and articulation marks have no audible effect, so how does one go about creating a "musical score" in Logic9? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Hi Tim, Ah, so you spoke with Jay, eh? Good thing you didn't meet him in person. I mean, it's not like he's such a bad guy, but if you were out in public with him you might get a little uncomfortable being that people stare at him like they do... Naw, we love Jay, and we kid. Though I'm already bracing myself for his comeback to the above, as I'm sure it'll be a doozy. He's good like dat. OK, truly, this is probably best answered in a separate thread, but while we're here... You can certainly prepare a written score in Logic by step entry, manually playing stuff in, or penciling in notes. But getting playback with emotion and dynamics? That's a whole other ball of wax. With VSL, articulations are switched by adding notes (keyswitches) which lie outside the range of the instruments being played. For example, on an oboe patch, C0 will select staccato, C#0 will select sustained notes, and so on. You can easily hide these notes using a feature of the staff styles editor so that the notes don't appear in the score. But switching articulations is only the beginning. Dynamics are created on the most basic level by adjusting the velocity of notes. Let's say you have a harp gliss, 3 octaves, marked pp on the first note with a crescendo to ff. Here's a case where you could use a variety of means to scale the velocities of the notes so that they increased a little more with each note. But this technique doesn't work very well when you're trying to add emotion to long sustained notes. For example, a double whole note in the violins that starts pp, crescendos to mf, then back down to pp. To achieve this you'd have to draw in -- at the very least -- a volume curve to get that dynamic. But... There's really more to it than that. Drawing in volume curves only makes sounds louder and softer, but doesn't go far enough to simulate how real instruments sound when sustained notes are being played with dynamics. Most, if not all instruments get brighter as they get louder. VSL has the capability to let you simulate this too, by assigning a controller to affect what's known as 'velocity crossfade' (a bit of a misnomer in this context but that's what it's called). With this method you use a controller to crossfade between two dynamic levels of samples (p and f) instead of allowing velocity to make the switch (the default in VSL, or at least with the Special Edition, which I have). You can also record these kinds of dynamics in realtime, after the notes are entered, by automating the channel strip volume for each instrument, and/or the CC of your choice to work the crossfading. But it's really really really really really really really really tedious to do it this way, one instrument at a time. Personally I play in all my parts and in real time ride in the volume with a slider on my controller. Or, I might set up a controller to work crossfading (which gets me 80% of the way in terms of dynamics) and then record volume automation to exaggerate or limit those dynamics a bit more. Yeah, it's not straightforward. I wouldn't say that there are any problems using the score editor to write a score in Logic, but in terms of turning such a penciled-in score into a convincing mockup? Ouch... I know that some guys indeed work this way and their scores sound terrific, but it's a skill that takes a long time to master. If you're a player I'd suggest that you play in as many parts (unquantized, BTW) as you can while getting into the habit of writing in volume rides (at the very least) as you play the parts in. HTH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashermusic Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Hey ski, I am wanting to use the score editor for actual composition and then use VSL for the audio.... I spoke with Jay Asher today and he did say that I could use the notation editor for most things, but if you get into some complicated scores I would have some problems. And I am correct in that dynamics and articulation marks have no audible effect, so how does one go about creating a "musical score" in Logic9? Actually Tim, I said that you COULD have some troubles with complex stuff like Penderecki, not that you WOULD. I also told you some dynamics and articulations have and can be assigned MIDI meaning but that I keep two versions:one for how it sounds for parts I will keep and 1 for how it looks for parts I give to players because once I start to do score prep, I never want to have to think about what it sounds like. As for Ski's comments about me I will let them pass because he is sadly prematurely senile. For such a young guy, it is a bit it of a tragedy. The constant drooling is an unfortunate side effect of his condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimWinter Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Hey ski, I am wanting to use the score editor for actual composition and then use VSL for the audio.... I spoke with Jay Asher today and he did say that I could use the notation editor for most things, but if you get into some complicated scores I would have some problems. And I am correct in that dynamics and articulation marks have no audible effect, so how does one go about creating a "musical score" in Logic9? Actually Tim, I said that you COULD have some troubles with complex stuff like Penderecki, not that you WOULD. I also told you some dynamics and articulations have and can be assigned MIDI meaning but that I keep two versions:one for how it sounds for parts I will keep and 1 for how it looks for parts I give to players because once I start to do score prep, I never want to have to think about what it sounds like. As for Ski's comments about me I will let them pass because he is sadly prematurely senile. For such a young guy, it is a bit it of a tragedy. The constant drooling is an unfortunate side effect of his condition. Thanks for the clarification, and I didn't ever want any one to get the impression that I forgot what you told me.... I guess my summation wasn't quite accurate..... My bad. I did remember that you have a performance version and a print version..... And as far as looks go...... I've seen your picture and if we were walking down Ventura Blvd in Sherman Oaks or Encino.... we might just get stopped by LAPD...... And ski, thanks for the explanation. Very helpful and enlightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 As for Ski's comments about me I will let them pass because he is sadly prematurely senile. For such a young guy, it is a bit it of a tragedy. The constant drooling is an unfortunate side effect of his condition. At least I get sympathy from the guy, which is nice... And he's been kind enough to lend me his drool bucket from time to time too. Yes, indeed, all of us at the home are very fond of ol' what's-his-name... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimWinter Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 As for Ski's comments about me I will let them pass because he is sadly prematurely senile. For such a young guy, it is a bit it of a tragedy. The constant drooling is an unfortunate side effect of his condition. At least I get sympathy from the guy, which is nice... And he's been kind enough to lend me his drool bucket from time to time too. Yes, indeed, all of us at the home are very fond of ol' what's-his-name... Yes that is nice of him, but does he clean the bucket before he gives it to you??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Before who gives what to me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Music Spirit Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Personally I play in all my parts and in real time ride in the volume with a slider on my controller. Or, I might set up a controller to work crossfading (which gets me 80% of the way in terms of dynamics) and then record volume automation to exaggerate or limit those dynamics a bit more. Indeed Ski, I had forgotten that you demonstrated to this to us on the Logic/Film Scoring course 2008 as you composed and played in an instant film score live in front of our eyes with great expressive mastery ... Could you - for the benefit of us congenitally challenged Logic Environment paranoiacs - take us through the steps of your personal method of setting up the mod wheel on a master keyboard to affect the midi volume? Your hopes that it will help are assured cheers Music Spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 You really are too kind, Music Spirit! I'd like to suggest that we discuss this topic in a separate thread, as it would take this thread too OT if I started to expound upon the principles and some basic techniques here. (I know this thread has already gone OT, but I'm thinking we should keep further OT-ness down to a dull roar ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimWinter Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Before who gives what to me? Jay's drool bucket..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Jay? That's a kind of bird, yes? Sorry, one sec..... OK, back now... the cute waitress told me it's time for my medication again. (chortle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Burnell Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Haven't got the new version of Logic yet.... Does the new score now have a string 'up' bow symbol to complement the down bow symbol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Yes. But AFAIA there have always been up bown and down bow symbols available. What version of Logic are you on now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Burnell Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Hi - I'm on 8.0.2 Well when I look in the part box there are two symbols that look to some people like up bow symbols - one is a version of a strong staccato accent (a V with a dot inside) but I think the way it is presented is unique to Logic. The other is an ordinary accent (V with one side thicker than the other). The usual up bow symbol is a larger V - without a dot, and with the line thickness equal on both sides. Hopefully you can see in attachment where I've put these two Logic accent symbols next to a Sonata text font example of the up bow symbol. Logic Sonata up bow.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Yes, I see what you mean. I wouldn't have given this a second though had you not brought it to my attention, as I've been brow-beaten by my various violinist/violist friends into not indicating up/down bows because... well, they always say they want to figure it out on their own. So not really being familiar with the finer points of how those symbols should appear, and being that I'm on Logic 8 at the moment, perhaps someone else can have a look and see if there's any difference in how the up bow symbol appear in Logic 9 compared to what you show in your PDF. BTW, thanks for posting that PDF and also for explaining how you got the Sonata font up bow symbol to appear in the score. Paul, please list your Logic version and other system info in your signature (click the link in my signature and read #5 for details. Thanks.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Just some further thoughts... If you're looking to update to Logic 9, there are a few items that have been added to the score editor which are pretty darn useful. You can read about these new features here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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