Guide to Levels in Digital Audio

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

You're welcome, I'm glad you found my posts useful.

 

My songs have the following plug-ins on the master bus... UpStereo, Multipressor, and Averb...

 

Now, my songs don't clip at all, but they reach above -3dB once the multipressor is active. Is it still advised to use the gain-plug in to regulate the levels (without compromising sound quality?)

Peaking at -3 dBFS is fine

 

If you're using third party plug-ins (not sure what the UpStereo plug-in is) you need to make sure you don't overload at any stage in your chain.

[josephwoebeus]

Ok, thank you so much!

 

So would you still recommend using the gain plug-in to regulate the track levels with those specific plug-ins on the master bus? Sometimes I get paranoid and feel like the gain plug-in is reducing the quality of the songs sound.

[David Nahmani]

So would you still recommend using the gain plug-in to regulate the track levels with those specific plug-ins on the master bus?

Just watch the input level for those plug-ins, meaning if you're overloading a 3rd party plug-in's input, you can insert a gain plug-in just before that 3rd party plug-in and use it to turn down the level before the audio reaches the 3rd party plug-ins.

 

Sometimes I get paranoid and feel like the gain plug-in is reducing the quality of the songs sound.

Not anymore than having the level fader at any position but 0 on your channel strip.

[josephwoebeus]

I see I see.

 

Well, its not that the plug-ins are overloading or anything, I just want to reduce the levels of my songs so that they peak at -3dB (more headroom for mastering). Now (if I'm not mistaken), Langerfeldt has said in the past that if you have plug-ins on the master bus, its best to put a gain plug-in as the first in the master bus chain to lower the levels (vs. turning down the Output 1-2 fader).

 

I just wanted to make sure that with my specific master bus plug-in set up, the gain-plugin trick would work without compromising sound quality.

 

I should also note that I pretty much use the "Strings Compressor" preset on the multipressor for all of my songs and make adjustments according to taste. It gives the songs more clarity, air and space, but at the same time jacks up the levels!

 

Thank you guys for your help!

[josephwoebeus]

Also, could turning down the output on the Multipressor be a viable way of getting the song to peak at no more than -3dB?

 

I honestly feel like the gain plug-in is ruining the quality of the songs, but maybe I'm just psyching myself out!

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

Now (if I'm not mistaken), Langerfeldt has said in the past that if you have plug-ins on the master bus, its best to put a gain plug-in as the first in the master bus chain to lower the levels (vs. turning down the Output 1-2 fader).

It's not that simple. It could be the same - or not. Read the article and it'll be clear.

 

I honestly feel like the gain plug-in is ruining the quality of the songs, but maybe I'm just psyching myself out!

It's not. If you insert it earlier in the chain after setting up your plug-ins on the Stereo Output it will change the the sound, of course.

 

I

I should also note that I pretty much use the "Strings Compressor" preset on the multipressor for all of my songs and make adjustments according to taste. It gives the songs more clarity, air and space, but at the same time jacks up the levels!

Try not using presets, especially with a multiband compressor. You'll get a much better sound by learning how to use the EQ, compressor and limiter first. But that's subject for another thread.

[redlogic]

I honestly feel like the gain plug-in is ruining the quality of the songs, but maybe I'm just psyching myself out!

Reducing the gain using the Gain plug-in before the Multipressor will affect the Multipressor's Threshold settings. You'll have to re-tweak them.

I would put the Gain plug last in the chain or if no plugs are overloading, just lower the fader.

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

Use the Gain plug-in at the end of the chain makes no sense. That would be exactly the same as simply lowering the Stereo Output fader.

 

It should be put at the beginning of the chain. After that, make sure no plug-ins on the Stereo Output exceeds their output capabilities. The solution, as already mentioned above, is to start with the Gain plug-in if you're overloading the Stereo Output at unity fader level. Only then do you start inserting other plug-ins on the Stereo Output.

 

As mentioned earlier, all this is a moot point with Logic's own plug-ins as they all (except the BitCrusher) can scale floating point in & out.

[redlogic]

Use the Gain plug-in at the end of the chain makes no sense. That would be exactly the same as simply lowering the Stereo Output fader.

This is true.

Gain plug last in the chain is "the safe alternative" for those who are afraid to touch the Stereo Output fader.

 

Gain plug-in the first slot, then adding the other plugs is the best way...with the understanding that adding/reducing gain will affect the following plugs.

 

Seems like the josephwoebeus added the Gain plug after-the-fact and is now wondering why it sounds different.

[josephwoebeus]

I would put the Gain plug last in the chain or if no plugs are overloading, just lower the fader.

 

Hmm I see, so don't even use the Gain plug? Because, yes, my plug-ins are not overloading and my songs are not clipping, I just want to lower the levels to make more headroom. I just remember reading somewhere that turning down the fader is not the best idea if you have plug-ins on the master bus and instead popping a gain plug as the first in the chain is the preferred means of getting correct levels.

 

Also, would lowering the output of the Multipressor be a viable means of reducing levels?

 

Thanks!

[shivermetimbers]

I"... I just want to reduce the levels of my songs so that they peak at -3dB (more headroom for mastering).

 

 

 

Who will be doing your 'Mastering?'

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

Because, yes, my plug-ins are not overloading and my songs are not clipping, I just want to lower the levels to make more headroom.

You're overthinking it then. 3 dB of headroom is fine, as mentioned already and as stated in my article. You should read it - everything is explained in detail.

 

I just remember reading somewhere that turning down the fader is not the best idea if you have plug-ins on the master bus and instead popping a gain plug as the first in the chain is the preferred means of getting correct levels.

Not true as long as you're not overloading the plug-ins - as mentioned already. Let's move on, please

[Oceanviewstudio]

Just adding a note of THANKS Holger!

 

This forum really rocks, very very helpful.

[Madgear]

........sharing some gratitude from Florence..............

[mickgriddle]

Thanks a lot I was having trouble with that!

[ethansoe]

Thanks Lagerfeldt. That was great information.

[limisabel]

Hello, thanks for the links given in this forum, it helped me a lot.

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

Thanks, I'm glad you guys appreciate it. There will be a new PDF from me in the future, rest assured.

[chillywilly]

Awesome. I am learning so much as I read this!

[rainstick]

just downloaded....going to make a brew and have a read... nice one!

[Pompey]

Great Info!!! Thanks a lot!!!

[lyford]

Thanks for this - very well done!

[sunofagun]

Superb read... Helps a lot. Thanks

[Shawn S]

Thanks again, Lagerfeldt. Very helpful indeed.

[ros]

thanks holger..much appreciated

[ianhudson]

ok, I know this is an old thread, but I just found it, and I think I FINALLY get this!!!! thanks so much! let me just verify:

I had a song I was mixing and the levels coming out the master were crazy low. I should have paid attn, but I didn;t.....anyway, I cranked the master and even slapped a limiter on it, and still it wasn't loud enough......from what I understand now, I can just put a trim plug on the master and add gain that way....sooooo simple.

I do have a question though: you say to shoot for all tracks to be recorded at -6DB or so. Does that mean when you record drums, you set up the gain on all the mics that way.....snare=-6db, hihat=-6db, overheads=-6b, kik=-6db and so on......even tamborine? or shaker.....simply put, no matter what I record, I should look for that level?

This has been such a revelation for me.....it reminds me of when I could finally play a bar chord on guitsr

[David Nahmani]

When recording you should avoid 0 dB FS which is the threshold where you start clipping your converters. So if a signal is pretty consistent in level and you know for sure that you can get it at -6 dB FS and there's absolutely no way it will all of a sudden jump to 0 dB FS, go for it. But if the signal keeps jumping up and down by 10 dB, then - 6 dB FS is not going to cut it, you need a bit over 10 dB of headroom.

 

So basically the ideal recording level depends on your signal predictability. If I'm recording an unpredictable drummer or singer I'm going to use much more headroom (a lower recording signal).

 

Don't overthink it though: the only rule is to avoid reaching 0 dB FS. If you did, then your recording level was too hot.

[ianhudson]

When recording you should avoid 0 dB FS which is the threshold where you start clipping your converters. So if a signal is pretty consistent in level and you know for sure that you can get it at -6 dB FS and it there's absolutely no way it will all of a sudden jump to 0 dB FS, go for it. But if the signal keeps jumping up and down by 10 dB, then - 6 dB FS is not going to cut it, you need a bit over 10 dB of headroom.

 

So basically the ideal recording level depends on your signal predictability. If I'm recording an unpredictable drummer or singer I'm going to use much more headroom (a lower recording signal).

 

Don't overthink it though: the only rule is to avoid reaching 0 dB FS. If you did, then your recording level was too hot.

 

thanks for the quick reply......I get what you are saying......man, was I ever doing things wrong......good news is, this makes me want to start a new song

[ew1]

Hi.

 

I have a question.

 

If you have a track that peaks at -2 dBFS and you want it to peak at say -6, you can use the gain plugin to remove 4dB, leaving you with a track that peaks at -6.

 

But in terms of tone, timbre, colour and character, is the track that has been gain reduced to peak at -6 exactly the same as what that track would sound like if it had actually been recorded with a real peak level of -6? Would those 2 tracks be exactly the same, not in terms of volume, but in terms of tone, character etc?

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

If you have a track that peaks at -2 dBFS and you want it to peak at say -6, you can use the gain plugin to remove 4dB, leaving you with a track that peaks at -6.

Yes, you could do that, but the question is why.

 

But in terms of tone, timbre, colour and character, is the track that has been gain reduced to peak at -6 exactly the same as what that track would sound like if it had actually been recorded with a real peak level of -6? Would those 2 tracks be exactly the same, not in terms of volume, but in terms of tone, character etc?

For all intents and purposes yes, they would have the same tone and character. The difference could be measured with a detailed analysis, but not heard.