David Nahmani Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 I'm wondering, which pan law setting is everybody using and why? I have been using the default '0dB' in the past and now am getting used to '-3dB compensated', which I like better since I don't have to compensate the level of every track I pan. I think it is now slowly becoming my favorite setting. I don't like '-3dB' since it messes up the gain at various stages when routing through Busses and Auxes. Does anyone out there uses '-3dB', and if yes why? I am eager to read your comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gertvanhoof Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Having spent the digital mixing part of my formative years on early Yamaha consoles, I've stuck to the -3dB paradigm for some time, but eventually I settled for 0dB in Logic. I haven't really tried out the -3dB Compensated setting yet. Can you please elaborate on the rationale behind this setting? To what extent is this compensated aspect predictable in your experience? Open to persuasion, Gert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 (edited) Well 0dB is the default setting, it doesn't compensate anything, so the result is that if a signal is panned in the center, it stays at its nominal level (0dB of gain), and as you pan a signal to one side, the level drops. -3dB is, in my opinion, a first attempt at 'fixing' that 'problem', by gradually reducing the gain of the signal as you bring it back to center, ending up at -3dB when panned dead center. Not an ideal solution, but the advantage is that the level remains constant as you pan the signal across the stereo field. -3dB compensated is the best of both world: using the -3dB setting but adding 3dB of gain to the whole signal. So it's pretty much raising the gain as you pan to a side, so that the level remains constant as you pan across the stereo field, but not losing -3dB when panned center. The level is consistent as you pan, although you'll see the level rise on the meters as you pan to a side. Edited September 5, 2007 by David Nahmani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gertvanhoof Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Oh, in that case, -3dB Compensated is in effect the default Yamaha pan law. I've never really got used to the rising of the signal levels as you open up a stereo pair, making it hard to maintain the right headroom throughout... Of course, this is a matter of convenience, and your mileage may vary. Best regards, Gert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VSOP Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Yo, Off topic but still in the ballpark. I was listing to some older Mix from my 02r days and comparing them to My current Pro Fools, n Logic Mixes. The o2r ones seem "Wider" to us. Significantly wider. Wer not really doing anythin different, ust different platforms. I have never changed the Pan Law from the Default in Logic, and You cant channge it in PT. Could this be the reason for the o2rs greater Width? -3db Compensated? What r ur thoughts? Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdeep Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 I've been using -3db compensated. Somehow the stereo imaging seems better or at least levels seem more consistant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPro Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 can you tell me how to change the pan law? thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdeep Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 http://logicquicktips.blogspot.com/2006/10/laws-of-pan.html this post explains the whole pan law concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Tomasi Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Man, I didn't even know about this. Suhweeet.... Yes I read the manual! Sort of! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cali316 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 I've definitely been sticking with the -3db compensated pan law - I think it makes the stereo image much fuller and gives the track more depth. I did some research on this very topic not too long ago for myself and a buddy and came across the following. Not exactly Logic related per se, but I found the "origins of panning laws" in this article really interesting : http://www.harmony-central.com/articles/tips/panning_laws/ It seems that each DAW has their own set of panning laws (some even go to -6db). And VSOP, I found out not too long ago that Pro Tools LE has a fixed pan law setting of -2.5 (which can't be changed and I'm not sure if this applies to TDM systems). So if you're listening to your current Logic mixes at the '0db' setting, this could explain it. Just keep in mind that if you change the setting in a song that was completed with the 0db setting to -3db compensated, you may have to adjust levels accordingly. I tried that on an old mix of mine and anything panned hard L & R were clipping. Great topic David, I've always wanted to post that same question here out of curiosity to see what everyone else was using. And you're definitely right about the normal -3db setting. It reallly messes with the gain structure when routed through Busses / Auxes. That's one setting I never use anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VSOP Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Yea Im reeel intrigued. I Have a New Album Proj starting Tommorrow that I was going 2 mix in Tools, but an now going to mix in Logic at -3compensated. This will be a good test as its one of those hip hop track that I want the hats 2 sound like thier a fuckin Block and a half away thier so hard panned. haha Ya. VSOP Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Robinson Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 sonalksis Free G. -6db pan law. more like i'm used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted November 3, 2006 Author Share Posted November 3, 2006 Well in itself a pan law won't change the sound of your mix. You can use any of them, and as long as you're using your ears, you'll be compensating anyway. However, if you bring a mix from another DAW and you're not using the same pan law, the stereo image width will definitely change! Both -3dB and -3dB compensated are going to sound wider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashermusic Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 -3db compensated here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknobryan Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 If I change the pan law will that change the pan law of the LFO panning in EXS24? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockBottom Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 (edited) Routing an LFO to periodically pan an audio signal in Exs24 has nothing to do with the channel strip pan control, and doesn't use any special law: when centered, the audio will be about 6~7 dB louder than when hard-panned, whatever pan law you've picked up... Edited November 3, 2006 by RockBottom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknobryan Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 damn. I wonder what pan law the EXS24 and ES2 pan controls obey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockBottom Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 I'm not sure either... But I once inserted a direction mixer plug on the Exs track strip, and adjusted its base to 0 [i.e. mono], then measured the sampler output level with the level meter plug, and that's what I got, approximately. I'd rather have it compensated, but it's still usable for effects — I never use it, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockBottom Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 (edited) I just reproduced my former experience [i used Logic 7.1 at the time] and I want to amend what I wrote above: it's more like a 3 dB attenuation [RMS] when hard-panned. Well... this kind of measurement isn't very precise anyway. Edited November 4, 2006 by RockBottom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted November 3, 2006 Author Share Posted November 3, 2006 Sounds like a 0dB pan law to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockBottom Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 I know it doesn't matter much, but if it's a 0 dB pan law, why does the meter show any attenuation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted November 3, 2006 Author Share Posted November 3, 2006 Hmmm sorry I wasn't thinking right... how do you measure your RMS level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockBottom Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 (edited) I'm not pretending this is the best way to measure this, but this is how the plugs were chained — unfortunately only the last 3 snapshots appear here: 1. audio instrument: Exs, out level = -6 dB — I used the default sine wave you get when no sampler is loaded 2. direction mixer, base = 0 — this turns the signal into a monophonic one 3. gain, level = +9 dB — I know: this was about 5 dB too much, and I uselessly checked the swap L/R button 4. level meter, display = RMS — the red 5.0 reading is the maximum peak level reached. The RMS level is something like -2 dB when hard-panned to either side [first meter snapshot], and +2 dB when centered [second meter snapshot]. Edited November 4, 2006 by RockBottom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockBottom Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 (edited) An here are the missing snapshots, corresponding to positions 1 and 2 in the inserted plug-in chain — notice I adjusted the Lfo modulation for maximum span. Also, please note that checking the mono button on the gain plug doesn't yield the same result as inserting the direction mixer plug with the settings below: Edited November 4, 2006 by RockBottom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockBottom Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 Hey, David, I knew I had to attach the snapshots in reverse order, but I didn't know there was a maximum of 3 attachments per post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPro Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 switched from 0 to -3db comp. I love this....so much more to what I'm used to. my mixes sound so much better. Thanks for these tips!!!! great forum david!!!! alot of great help and suggestions always Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicianista Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Freaky, dudes... I was screwing around with this just tonight. The Fireface goes up to 6db. I returned everything back to 0db after tweaking a few things here and there. Glad to know exactly what it does now. Great thread. -3db compensated sounds like the way to go. Me likey wide! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben parsons Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 doing some panning on a project, and remembered reading about this at some point. i wanted to say i'm tryin gout -3 compensated and liking it. give this a shot if you haven't yet- go under File>Song Settings>Audio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante310 Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 man i didn't even know about pan laws...this is awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawson Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Pressing the mono button in the gain plugin doesn't produce the "same" mono result as using the direction mixer? how is it different? I posted a while ago asking how to check my mixes in mono for phase and everyone helpfully replied "use the gain plug on output and use mono button" what is the best way to check mixes in mono? thanks, Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.