Pioneers of Electronic Music

[Kent Sandvik]

As for the theremin, with the exception of the oscillator (or oscillators) there's no processing, modelling, modulation, filtering which is kind of the key for a synthesizer. DX had modulation in forms of the FM synthesis. Otherwise a tone generator or even a radio would be considered a synthesizer.

 

Definition of synthesize:

To combine two or more things to produce a new, more complex product; To be combined producing a new, more complex product; To produce a substance by chemical synthesis; To be produced a by chemical synthesis

 

I think that is which kills the idea of a theremin being a synthesizer. I.e the simple worth synthesize. Tone generator, yes.

[Beer Moth]

That can't be right!

I was playing tenor then,which means I was 14,and that was 2 years earlier!

Wiki bollacks.

 

 

Oh, I'm the first to admit that Internet is unreliable, but multiple sources like:

 

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=9407

 

However, billboard.com is worthless for finding release dates, that's what I found out.

 

And those annoying cheapo TV progs that do the 70s,80s or whatever and say Jaws was 75.

In the UK it was 76,although it was made in 75,the release was 76!

 

I know that for a freaking f$@%ing fact!

 

i was there!!!!

[Kent Sandvik]

That can't be right!

I was playing tenor then,which means I was 14,and that was 2 years earlier!

Wiki bollacks.

 

 

Oh, I'm the first to admit that Internet is unreliable, but multiple sources like:

 

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=9407

 

However, billboard.com is worthless for finding release dates, that's what I found out.

 

And those annoying cheapo TV progs that do the 70s,80s or whatever and say Jaws was 75.

In the UK it was 76,although it was made in 75,the release was 76!

 

I know that for a freaking f$@%ing fact!

 

i was there!!!!

 

What could I say. You need to contact tens of web sites that claim 1973 and ask them to correct this. Sorry I don't remember 1973 that much myself.

 

Does anyone have a subscription to Billboard or the latest magazine, you need a special code to get into the top 100 listings at http://www.billboard.biz/.

 

Check November 1973, position #22. billboard.com only shows the first ten songs.

[Jordi Torres]

As for the theremin, with the exception of the oscillator (or oscillators) there's no processing, modelling, modulation, filtering which is kind of the key for a synthesizer. DX had modulation in forms of the FM synthesis. Otherwise a tone generator or even a radio would be considered a synthesizer.

 

So what? It still produces sound.

 

Definition of synthesize:

To combine two or more things to produce a new, more complex product; To be combined producing a new, more complex product; To produce a substance by chemical synthesis; To be produced a by chemical synthesis

 

I think that is which kills the idea of a theremin being a synthesizer. I.e the simple worth synthesize. Tone generator, yes.

 

So substractive synthesis is not synthesis?

 

The definition you quote doesn't completely fit the "synthesis" we're talking about here.

 

J.

[ski]

As for the theremin, with the exception of the oscillator (or oscillators) there's no processing, modelling, modulation, filtering which is kind of the key for a synthesizer.

 

A theremin doesn't have modulation?

 

Filtering is key for a synthesizer?

 

DX had modulation in forms of the FM synthesis.

 

FM synthesis IS modulation of a sine wave. Modulation is inherent in the process of synthesizing more complex waveforms from the carrier wave.

 

Otherwise a tone generator or even a radio would be considered a synthesizer.

 

You can't hear the heterodyning oscillators in a radio. Otherwise I'd say you're correct.

[Kent Sandvik]

As for the theremin, with the exception of the oscillator (or oscillators) there's no processing, modelling, modulation, filtering which is kind of the key for a synthesizer. DX had modulation in forms of the FM synthesis. Otherwise a tone generator or even a radio would be considered a synthesizer.

 

So what? It still produces sound.

 

Definition of synthesize:

To combine two or more things to produce a new, more complex product; To be combined producing a new, more complex product; To produce a substance by chemical synthesis; To be produced a by chemical synthesis

 

I think that is which kills the idea of a theremin being a synthesizer. I.e the simple worth synthesize. Tone generator, yes.

 

So substractive synthesis is not synthesis?

 

The definition you quote doesn't completely fit the "synthesis" we're talking about here.

 

J.

 

Of course it fits, you synthesize by using a filter to synthesize the signal. Or a modulator. Same with Karpus-Strong, additive et rest.

[Beer Moth]

Everything's relative.

 

I'm getting increasingly convinced that history is being 'democratically' rewritten.

 

All the more so with regard to music and the arts.

 

Though I am willing to concede I could be wrong on the NutBush thing,I will not budge on Jaws!

 

I do remember being pissed and Nutbush doing its thing,and it being a minor turning point in my musical philosophy.

 

Can't imagine it having been so late.

 

Just doesn't compute at all!

 

Hic (in case you missed the first one back in 1970ish).

[Kent Sandvik]

As for the theremin, with the exception of the oscillator (or oscillators) there's no processing, modelling, modulation, filtering which is kind of the key for a synthesizer.

 

A theremin doesn't have modulation?

 

Filtering is key for a synthesizer?

 

DX had modulation in forms of the FM synthesis.

 

FM synthesis IS modulation of a sine wave. Modulation is inherent in the process of synthesizing more complex waveforms from the carrier wave.

 

Otherwise a tone generator or even a radio would be considered a synthesizer.

 

You can't hear the heterodyning oscillators in a radio. Otherwise I'd say you're correct.

 

I can't state myself that an oscillating circuit where you control the frequency with one hand and amplitude with another has anything to do with sculpting sounds from an original tone generator -- but yes I could be wrong.

 

Unless you count the circuits and tubes as synthesizer elements!

[Jordi Torres]

you synthesize by using a filter to synthesize the signal. Or a modulator.

 

Uh-huh

 

J.

[Kent Sandvik]

Everything's relative.

 

I'm getting increasingly convinced that history is being 'democratically' rewritten.

 

All the more so with regard to music and the arts.

 

Though I am willing to concede I could be wrong on the NutBush thing,I will not budge on Jaws!

 

I do remember being pissed and Nutbush doing its thing,and it being a minor turning point in my musical philosophy.

 

Can't imagine it having been so late.

 

Just doesn't compute at all!

 

Hic (in case you missed the first one back in 1970ish).

 

It's a good song, btw!

[Kent Sandvik]

you synthesize by using a filter to synthesize the signal. Or a modulator.

 

Uh-huh

 

J.

 

It's indeed one good statement in a debate. Not.

[Beer Moth]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fundamentals-Musical-Acoustics-Arthur-Benade/dp/048626484X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1291342408&sr=8-2

 

The stuff at the end of this book would kinda trounce all...and a bloody good book anyway.

8)

[ski]

I can't state myself that an oscillating circuit where you control the frequency with one hand and amplitude with another has anything to do with sculpting sounds from an original tone generator -- but yes I could be wrong.

 

Yes you can. Just say, "an oscillating circuit where you control the frequency and amplitude with your hands, sculpting sound in the process, is the epitome of modulation". Or write it on the blackboard 50 times, as you have to stay after class here at Synth Skool.

 

Unless you count the circuits and tubes as synthesizer elements!

 

Tubes and circuits don't count? If so, why not?

[Kent Sandvik]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/synthesizer

 

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/synthesizer

 

http://www.yourdictionary.com/synthesizer

 

http://www.answers.com/topic/synthesizer (this was a lame one)

 

http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,2542,t=synthesizer&i=52367,00.asp

 

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Synthesizer (best one imho)

 

In all those definitions it would take a stretch to insert the theremin into the definition.

[Beer Moth]

Yes,but can you pronoun' epitome correctly?

[Kent Sandvik]

I can't state myself that an oscillating circuit where you control the frequency with one hand and amplitude with another has anything to do with sculpting sounds from an original tone generator -- but yes I could be wrong.

 

Yes you can. Just say, "an oscillating circuit where you control the frequency and amplitude with your hands, sculpting sound in the process, is the epitome of modulation". Or write it on the blackboard 50 times, as you have to stay after class here at Synth Skool.

 

Unless you count the circuits and tubes as synthesizer elements!

 

Tubes and circuits don't count? If so, why not?

 

I don't consider pitch and amplitude exactly sculpting an original sound generator output as that's what the generator should do, provide pitch and amplitude levels. What happens after that is synthesis. Before that it is a sound generator, nothing else.

 

The tube circuits case it where you could use some kind of legal means to try to make a theremin a synthesizer in a court case, indeed.

[Beer Moth]

Here's an easy starter:

 

Ovipositor.

[Jordi Torres]

Here's a nice synthesis basics article. Some good titles at the bottom if you need to go deeper in your quest to understand what a synthesizer is:

 

http://beausievers.com/synth/synthbasics/

 

J.

[ski]

I don't consider pitch and amplitude exactly sculpting an original sound generator output as that's what the generator should do, provide pitch and amplitude levels. What happens after that is synthesis. Before that it is a sound generator, nothing else.

 

The tube circuits case it where you could use some kind of legal means to try to make a theremin a synthesizer in a court case, indeed.

 

OK then... Well, putting the Monkee's example I posted above to the side for now, I can't come up with an earlier and more clear cut example of a synth solo on a rock record than Lucky Man. I'll concede that. But maybe you should quit while you're ahead when it comes to discussing synthesis...

[Kent Sandvik]

Something electronic that oscillates=a brain.

Brain wobble.

 

I'm a synthesiser!

 

Hic.

 

Todd Rundgren's I Was Born to Synthesize!

[Kent Sandvik]

Here's a nice synthesis basics article. Some good titles at the bottom if you need to go deeper in your quest to understand what a synthesizer is:

 

http://beausievers.com/synth/synthbasics/

 

J.

 

So do you want to delete the filter section on that web site to fit the theremin in?

[Kent Sandvik]

I don't consider pitch and amplitude exactly sculpting an original sound generator output as that's what the generator should do, provide pitch and amplitude levels. What happens after that is synthesis. Before that it is a sound generator, nothing else.

 

The tube circuits case it where you could use some kind of legal means to try to make a theremin a synthesizer in a court case, indeed.

 

OK then... Well, putting the Monkee's example I posted above to the side for now, I can't come up with an earlier and more clear cut example of a synth solo on a rock record than Lucky Man. I'll concede that. But maybe you should quit while you're ahead when it comes to discussing synthesis...

 

I'm the first to admit I'm no synthesis expert, even after working in startups with software synthesis algorithms. But using false analogies to prove something is not exactly logical.

 

I could classify a theremin an electronic instrument, but not as a synthesizer. That's how it's usually classified, as well.

[Kent Sandvik]

You know, a guitar pickup produces sound waves with frequency and amplitude -- so let's classify electric guitars as synthesizers, too.

[ski]

I'm not using false analogies, thank you very much. I'm applying basic principles of sound synthesis to that of the Theremin. While it may not have been regarded as a "synthesizer" in the day, there's little difference between its fundamental operation and that of any other synth in that:

 

1) you have control the pitch of an oscillator (pitch modulation)

2) you have control the amplitude of the output of that oscillator (amplitude modulation)

 

You can apply this same breakdown to a DX7. You can also apply this breakdown to any modular synth in which you bypass the filter and synthesize sounds exclusively by shaping the amplitude and/or pitch.

 

And it's funny... that the easiest way to synthesize the Lucky Man lead is to use a bunch of triangle wave oscillators with an "organ" style envelope on the VCA with no filter involved at all.

 

The sound of the theremin has been likened to that of a cello or the human voice. Is that not a form of imitative synthesis? Have you ever heard Pamela Kurstin play?

[Kent Sandvik]

If a theremin had two oscillators that modulated the output from the tone generators (oscillators) I would classify it as a synthesizer, as that's FM synthesis. If not, it's just a tone generator. Otherwise you need to call beepers, electronic door bells, car horns (modern ones), elevator door bells et rest synthesizers.

[ski]

If a theremin had two oscillators that modulated the output from the tone generators (oscillators) I would classify it as a synthesizer, as that's FM synthesis.

 

But that's not how FM synthesis works.

[Scott Jackson]

synthesis

[Beer Moth]

Synthetic+iser.

Any man-made instrument.

 

Oh no!

 

Man isn't 'synthetic',ergo all his instruments are not.

 

Or...

 

Sounds produced by imitating that which happens in the natural world,by various means....addind harmonics/partials,subtracting them and a whole bunch of other stufff.

 

What gets my goat is the way everybody ('') assumes that a different way of making sounds is suddenly going to equate to 'new' music.

 

Molto testiculissimo.

 

Hic.

 

 

All that pop crap in the 80s that now somehow is Whooooaaahhh!

 

???

 

Ooh! Too many cards shown...

 

[Kent Sandvik]

If a theremin had two oscillators that modulated the output from the tone generators (oscillators) I would classify it as a synthesizer, as that's FM synthesis.

 

But that's not how FM synthesis works.

 

http://www.clavia.se/nordmodular/Modularzone/FMsynthesis.html

[Kent Sandvik]

Also, to set the record straight, the electronic instrument heard on Beach Boys' Good Vibration is not a theremin, it's an electro theremin. It mimics the sound of a theremin to some degree, but different construction as well as timbre. It's neither classified as a synthesizer in the popular music literature.