DI Recording - best practice advice required!

[Old Mac Donald]

I'm recording a line-in instrument eg: electric bass, electric guitar. I'm recording it completely DRY with no processing whatsover and I check my levels by patching in a meter so that my input signal is maxing at around -6dB. So far, so good!

 

I record my take and listen back/view the results. I now have a good, strong take with no clipping and a very visible sound wave picture for my new track. This is great were I to leave it at that BUT, although I'm happy with my level, I don't want a very plain, unaffected, dry sound - I want to spice it up with some character ie: complimetary effects, reverb, whatever.

 

So I proceed to sculpt my dry recording and I decide that what my take needs (electric guitar) is a big, fat distortion something like the 'Glam Rock' preset - why not eh?!

 

I select said preset, go to play the track back and "WHOAHH!" all levels shoot into the red (the Output Level is clipping +6dB!) OK, not good! I'll whack all my levels down and I mean down - I'm right at the bottom of the channel scale now.

 

So my question is (and I apologise for the ramble but I felt I needed to spell it out in order to find the RIGHT way to make D.I. recordings in Logic):

 

Am I doing everything right here? Is this HOW you record a DI input?

 

By way of a control experiment I've tried it another way too. I've chosen the right sound for the song prior to recording, got my levels with preset added and recorded the track along with the effect. This way I have the advantage of more 'feel' when I'm tracking (it's much easier to get into a part when the source sounds good rather than playing along to a plain, dry sound) BUT, when I listen back to the results and look at the screen the visual picture (ie: the soundwave spikes) are hardly visible which leads me to believe that I haven't captured a very strong signal and that my dry recordings with effect added after the event are perhaps BETTER and more technically correct (??!)

 

Again, apologies for the length of this post but I don't feel I can move forward until some of you wise Logic Sages out there spell out what the best method to use is (ideally in a very basic way that I will hopefully be able to understand!!) As much as I am fascinated by Logic (and have read numerous posts here and elsewhere including Lagerfeldt's Levels tip sheet) I am STILL waiting for the penny to drop where this issue is concerned. If I can get some kind of definitive recording procedure in place here then I know I'll be able to progress much faster.

 

So, in a nutshell, do I record dry without effects and add 'em later (= BIG soundwaves!) OR, record with effects in place (and a smaller, inferior (?) soundwaves track read-out?)

 

My interface is an Apogee Duet (although I'm really not sure if I've set it up right where the 'Software' 'Hardware' choices are concerned!

 

Any thoughts/help much appreciated!!

[denitronik]

If you're recording in 24 bits (instead of 16 bits)you have plenty of head room and you can have your peaks at -12dbfs and some people advise to record at -18dbfs.

My advise is to record at 24 bits and lower your recording levels.

Most plug-ins have an output level control so you should use them to control your channel levels; you can see that if you use many plug-ins on the same channel your levels can easily get out of control.

Lagerfeldt's paper is great information.

[shivermetimbers]

I'm recording a line-in instrument eg: electric bass, electric guitar. I'm recording it completely DRY with no processing whatsover and I check my levels by patching in a meter so that my input signal is maxing at around -6dB. So far, so good!

 

I record my take and listen back/view the results. I now have a good, strong take with no clipping and a very visible sound wave picture for my new track. This is great were I to leave it at that BUT, although I'm happy with my level, I don't want a very plain, unaffected, dry sound - I want to spice it up with some character ie: complimetary effects, reverb, whatever.

 

So I proceed to sculpt my dry recording and I decide that what my take needs (electric guitar) is a big, fat distortion something like the 'Glam Rock' preset - why not eh?!

 

I select said preset, go to play the track back and "WHOAHH!" all levels shoot into the red (the Output Level is clipping +6dB!) OK, not good! I'll whack all my levels down and I mean down - I'm right at the bottom of the channel scale now.

 

So my question is (and I apologise for the ramble but I felt I needed to spell it out in order to find the RIGHT way to make D.I. recordings in Logic):

 

Am I doing everything right here? Is this HOW you record a DI input?

 

By way of a control experiment I've tried it another way too. I've chosen the right sound for the song prior to recording, got my levels with preset added and recorded the track along with the effect. This way I have the advantage of more 'feel' when I'm tracking (it's much easier to get into a part when the source sounds good rather than playing along to a plain, dry sound) BUT, when I listen back to the results and look at the screen the visual picture (ie: the soundwave spikes) are hardly visible which leads me to believe that I haven't captured a very strong signal and that my dry recordings with effect added after the event are perhaps BETTER and more technically correct (??!)

 

Again, apologies for the length of this post but I don't feel I can move forward until some of you wise Logic Sages out there spell out what the best method to use is (ideally in a very basic way that I will hopefully be able to understand!!) As much as I am fascinated by Logic (and have read numerous posts here and elsewhere including Lagerfeldt's Levels tip sheet) I am STILL waiting for the penny to drop where this issue is concerned. If I can get some kind of definitive recording procedure in place here then I know I'll be able to progress much faster.

 

So, in a nutshell, do I record dry without effects and add 'em later (= BIG soundwaves!) OR, record with effects in place (and a smaller, inferior (?) soundwaves track read-out?)

 

My interface is an Apogee Duet (although I'm really not sure if I've set it up right where the 'Software' 'Hardware' choices are concerned!

 

Any thoughts/help much appreciated!!

 

No matter which way you go, you are still recording the DI dry instrument. You can then 're-amp' all day long until you find what you like.

 

I like to record with the sounds because of how it will interact with my playing.

 

So if you pick a Glam rock setting before recording you can set your levels accordingly.

 

Most everybody in this situation forgets that you can always turn up your speaker volume so that you can record in logic at lower levels. Always leave your output/master volume at '0'dB. When tracking the instruments, you can keep individual levels at a lower setting instead of trying to squeeze the life out of every track.

 

Depending on your settings in Logic, the volume fader you move for the track is usually for the output level and not the input recording level. As long as your input signal is not overdriven, you should be alright.

[Old Mac Donald]

Okay, thanks for that! Yes, I think I'm recording at 24-bit. So, do I D.I. my electric guitar (for example) and set it to max. peak at -12dB (or even -18dB) and record the signal unprocessed then add any effects after tracking OR do I 'get my sound' first, measure the peak dB with the signal effected and then record? I see from your avatar you're a guitar player. I also notice you have the same interface as I have namely an Apogee Duet. From one guitarist to another I'd be VERY interested to know how you get your signal from your guitar through your Duet and recorded into Logic. If you'd be kind enough to spare the time to explain this step-by-step to me it would be most appreciated! I feel I can't really get going here until I get passed this hurdle.

 

Here's my path rig for Di'ing electric guitar:

Vintage V100 Les Paul style guitar DI'd directly into > Apogee Duet interface > Logic Pro 9.

 

The standard Logic guitar presets I have been experimenting with so far are:

 

- 'Clean Echoes' for songs where I need to emulate a tape echo delay sound a la Watkins Copicat

- 'Glam Rock' for songs requiring a bit of crunch

- '50s Rumble Drive' & 'Spinning Blue Speaker'. I like mucking about with these sounds on guitar.

 

I'm also striving right now for a good D.I'd bass sound but I imagine the same recording chain principles for electric guitar will apply. I've just gotta get my D.I. method right then I can apply that to my bass signal, etc.

[David Nahmani]

do I 'get my sound' first, measure the peak dB with the signal effected and then record

 

When recording, the channel strip meter always shows you the level of the dry recording, independently of any effects you may have on that channel strip. So yes, get your sound first, get your level and record.

 

Here's my path rig for Di'ing electric guitar:

Vintage V100 Les Paul style guitar DI'd directly into > Apogee Duet interface > Logic Pro 9.

 

Sounds right, assuming "DI'd directly" simply means "plugged into"? No need to get a DI box between the guitar and the Apogee. Just plug the guitar into the Duet and make sure in the Duet software you set that input to be an "instrument input".

[fader8]

I'm recording a line-in instrument eg: electric bass, electric guitar. I'm recording it completely DRY with no processing whatsover and I check my levels by patching in a meter so that my input signal is maxing at around -6dB. So far, so good!

Perfect.

I select said preset, go to play the track back and "WHOAHH!" all levels shoot into the red (the Output Level is clipping +6dB!) OK, not good! I'll whack all my levels down and I mean down - I'm right at the bottom of the channel scale now.

Many of the stock "presets" weren't very carefully designed to provide unity gain when inserted. Set your channel fader back to 0 and then insert a Gain plug-in at the very bottom of the insert stack. Reduce the gain there so that you have some room to swing with the channel fader during your mix.

[redlogic]

If you're not using a preset and decide to "roll your own" , remember you can lower the Output slider on Amp Designer.

[Old Mac Donald]

Ahh! This is all slowly begining to make sense to me! I can't wait to get my next session in so I can try out all these tips. Thanks SO much for all your comments and advice here folks! Not having access to my rig right now I won't know for definite 'til I get 'hands on' but I think the comments about turning the Output level down in Amp Designer and using a Gain Plug-In with those louder presets is gonna make all the difference and help me move forward here. Now I just need to find out what you mean by Unity Gain! I'll go trawl the pages here for the answer - cheers!

[Logicno8]

When recording, the channel strip meter always shows you the level of the dry recording, independently of any effects you may have on that channel strip. So yes, get your sound first, get your level and record.

 

 

 

Channel strip meter is showing a level of a dry recording but If we put some plugins (like guitar amp sims) we can see meter is changing. I mean, meter is calculating added gain after processing and it jumps up, right ? At least that's what should be happening. If I record plain sounding, dry bass and than use Amplitube 3 (for instance) with some bass rig preset I'll immediately get "hotter" level (fader at Unity at all time).

 

 

By the way Old Mac Donald....Check your interface (Apogee) Input Gain. If you overloaded your input, you can hardly make non distorted signal (distorted in a terrible sounding way, not like metal guitar ). If you have led indicator don't make it go red never ever.

When they say UNITY GAIN they mean of absolute (if I can say that way) fader position, when it is at 0dB's FS.

I had the same problems (and still do some of them) but...don't pay attention on your wave form. It can vary. Listen and look at meters. Yesterday I turned ON my wave form enhancer (in a visual way) to make them easier to see and forgot about it, later on it made me pissed off because I had ...blocks, bricks and not waves, but it sounded good, so I was thinking "What went wrong? Why I have no any "headroom" here and it still sounds good. Wtf is happening". I figured it out later but I kept recording because I saw I haven't clip any plugin in a chain, nor channel or (god forbid) master output.

I have now 8 fat, punchy guitars in my verse all peaking at -15dB's or -18dB's. I can add more, delete some, make levels but what is important they are all "healthy", strong signals. So. go for that. NO red lights, no terrible distorted sound, just what you're looking for, sonically and follow your meters rather than how your wave form looks like because,as I said, once you add 15 tracks, believe me, you'll have enough of power. Don't chase one fat track with 99 percent of "headroom" used.

[David Nahmani]

When recording, the channel strip meter always shows you the level of the dry recording, independently of any effects you may have on that channel strip. So yes, get your sound first, get your level and record.

 

 

 

Channel strip meter is showing a level of a dry recording but If we put some plugins (like guitar amp sims) we can see meter is changing. I mean, meter is calculating added gain after processing and it jumps up, right ?

 

No. Not when recording.

[Logicno8]

When recording, the channel strip meter always shows you the level of the dry recording, independently of any effects you may have on that channel strip. So yes, get your sound first, get your level and record.

 

 

 

Channel strip meter is showing a level of a dry recording but If we put some plugins (like guitar amp sims) we can see meter is changing. I mean, meter is calculating added gain after processing and it jumps up, right ?

 

No. Not when recording.

 

REALLY ??? OMG. I'm really surprised by that. I had some hard times getting to understand what that meter is actually showing and when.

So, what you are saying is that, even if I put some head smashing distortion as my only plugin in a insert slot of a channel strip, and If I have drastic difference in gain and sound I got, still while recording I will see meter showing dB's that are entering Logic's input BEFORE distortion plugin ? And when I play around with Input Enable button (but not recording) I can see what my signal is AFTER going through distortion plugin ? Meaning that I can be good while recording but started clipping in a playback (if heavy dist is used)....

[marshall_stack]

Regarding digital recording levels - excellent article at Sound On Sound here: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/qa0910-1.htm

 

Check out the enlargeable diagram on the right side of the page, quite useful.

[redlogic]

I had some hard times getting to understand what that meter is actually showing and when.

Yes, it can be confusing until you understand exactly what all the little buttons do AND how they interact.

 

So, what you are saying is that, even if I put some head smashing distortion as my only plugin in a insert slot of a channel strip, and If I have drastic difference in gain and sound I got, still while recording I will see meter showing dB's that are entering Logic's input BEFORE distortion plugin ?

Yes.

And when I play around with Input Enable button (but not recording) I can see what my signal is AFTER going through distortion plugin ?

Yes again!

 

To add a little to that and kind of sum it all up...

 

If the Record Enable button is engaged:

The meter shows the level coming into the channel strip unaffected by plug-ins or fader position.

Pre or Post Fader Metering has no effect on the meter.

This is where you set your recording level using your audio interface.

 

If the Input Monitoring button is engaged:

The channel strip meter shows the incoming level affected by plug-ins.

If Pre Fader Metering is activated, the fader doesn't affect the meter.

If Pre Fader Metering is not activated, you are Post Fader Metering and the fader affects the meter.

 

I pretty much always use Pre Fader Metering.

Call me crazy, but I actually like to know what's going on level-wise "upstream".

 

 

My method of recording DI (dry) guitar using an amp sim:

 

Click on the Record Enable button and dial in a ballpark sound on the amp sim that fits the song.

 

I adjust the level on my audio interface (recording level) and the final output volume control of the plugin (listening volume) so that when playing dynamically through the song, my highest peak is about -6 dB on the channel strip meter. Note that recording level and listening volume are two separate things......blended into one.

On Amp Designer, I use the Output slider at the far right of the plug-in to set my rough listening volume coming off the amp sim.

 

Since I know the different output levels of my guitars (humbuckers vs. single coils) and I know how I play, I know the settings on my audio interface for each guitar that gives me a dynamic range that goes from barely brushing the strings with my fingerprints to full bore banging it out and still always peaking at about -6 dB on the channel strip meter. All this is about setting the recording level.

 

Since I've got my recording level good to go, I'm mainly concerned with getting a tone, tweaking any effects and getting a listening volume that lets me play my best. Once I've got the tone and I'm feelin' it , I make any final volume adjustments with the channel strip fader and hit record.

 

Lather...rinse...repeat.

[Old Mac Donald]

Great 'input' (!) here to my original post folks! I am hopefully going to put all this advice to good use over the coming weekend which is when I next get to strum my geetar and twiddle with knobs (that didn't come out right!)

 

After having reflected over the last week's individual posts here I think ultimately my main stumbling block is my own slow learning curve transition from 'old skool' analogue recording principles to working in the digital domain. I didn't realise at first but I am obviously really stuck in my ways! Once I can get past this levels issue I should be fine as I truly think that Logic is an amazing system. So it's really just the levels thing - it's really not as straightforward as it seems for an old spotty dog like me!

 

After YEARS of recording in the analogue domain I stil naturally want to hit just below that 0dB mark to get a strong, hot signal. The idea of recording at -18dB I admit is still totally alien to me and still doesn't sit right with me .... yet! I realise that this is an issue that I am really gonna have to overcome if I'm to make any decent sounding recordings with my new set up (yet I still find myself at times hankering for that occasional +4 to 10dB analogue meter red light overdrive that once gave me that creamy tape saturation as opposed to this awful sounding digital distortion you get when you clip this system! I'll get over it! You gotta move with the times.

 

Thanks once again for all the advice here - I shall report back with my experimental findings post w/e. Cheers!

[Logicno8]

redlogic......Holly s#!+ !!! I've been asking for THIS explanation for a quite some time now. I thought I got it but, no. Now I'm hopefully getting there.

So, now I tried it and it makes waaaay more sense they it used to.

I plugged my bass into my audio interface input, I set it to decent gain amount, than took the GuitarRig amp simulator and used metal distortion preset (very fat, distorted, punchy) and you I realized that what you have said is absolutely true. It's not that I didn't believe you in a first place but I wanted to put these examples of yours into a practical situation.

And you can clearly see that my meter is showing highest peak at -12dB's while I was recording ("R" button engaged thus showing "dry" signal input level). When I played back what I just recorded I saw that meter is showing highest peak at -4.9dB's (which was the same number I got when I tried this distortion using "I" button for Input monitoring enabled without any other buttons engaged).

 

So now I GOT IT. Thank you a million redlogic.

 

 

My conclusion....when "R" button is engaged the meter shows level of unprocessed signal coming in. When "R' and "I" are engaged together meter shows the same thing (I just tried that). When just "I" button is engaged meter shows level of a processed signal (if any plugins are involved of course).

In a playback (no buttons engaged) meter will show level of a processed signal, like if it would show when "I" button is engaged during amp tryouts.

[shivermetimbers]

"... Setting the Monitoring Level for Recording

If the Independent Monitoring Level (for Record Enabled Channel Strips) option in the Logic Pro > Preferences > Audio > Devices > Core Audio tab is enabled, an independent monitoring level is available when an audio channel strip is record enabled. After you arm the track, set the fader to the desired level. The original playback level will be restored when the channel strip’s Record button is disabled.

 

Note: The Volume fader controls only the playback (or monitoring) level, not the recording level. You must set recording levels externally—on your mixer, or at the original sound source. Take care when you set the input levels, because digital audio will clip when overloaded. Clipping results in a particularly harsh, metallic distortion, so unless you have a penchant for heavier musical styles, overloading the inputs isn’t recommended (see Understanding a Channel Strip’s Peak Level Display).

 

Copyright © Apple Inc. All rights reserved."

 

 

It's all in the manual (just click your heels).

 

 

[redlogic]

So now I GOT IT. Thank you a million redlogic.

Yes It seems you do

 

Your diploma for mastery of this concept is in the mail.

[Logicno8]

So now I GOT IT. Thank you a million redlogic.

Yes It seems you do

 

Your diploma for mastery of this concept is in the mail.

 

 

Hahaha...okay, I'll print it and make a T-shirt out of it.

It says "Logic Pro Studio 'Record Enable-Input Monitoring' engineer".

[shivermetimbers]

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