Using reverb - orchestra

[ansthenia]

Hello everyone

 

I write orchestral music and I don't know much about adding reverb to the track. I have just been sticking a space designer reverb on the master of the track, which lately I have found out isn't a good thing to do.

 

For people who write orchestral music in logic; what is the best way, in your opinion, of adding reverb to make it sound as realistic as possible? I would have though that just putting one on the master would be a good idea so that the orchestra sounds like it is in the same space? or should I create aux channels and give each separate section (brass, strings etc...) it's own reverb?

 

Thanks for your time much appreciated

[ski]

Hello everyone

 

I write orchestral music

 

What styles of orchestral music? This is important when discussing reverbs.

 

and I don't know much about adding reverb to the track. I have just been sticking a space designer reverb on the master of the track, which lately I have found out isn't a good thing to do.

 

Why do you say that isn't a good thing to do?

[ansthenia]

Well I write mainly movie and video game music. The typical big boom action music, sometimes called the "Hollywood" sound very big and full.

 

As for "not a good thing to do' it is because I have heard you can get much better results/make it sound more realistic if you work on the reverb within separate instruments/sections rather than sticking it on the master. I guess I should have said "not the best thing to do"

 

Thanks for the reply

[BadOrange]

Ativerb and MIR are commonly but do understand that reverb will understate anything you add it to. So adding it to a prominent element will take away from its impact in effect making it more mellow. I suggest using it as a send applying different amounts on each section. YOu can also apply a compressor after the reverb so that big tutti sections are not a complete muddy mess,

[ski]

Not to say that you shouldn't use individual reverbs as needed, but putting a reverb on your main output can act like a "glue" to make all instruments (and other reverbs) sound like they're all occurring in the same space.

[David Nahmani]

A real orchestra is not "all in the same place". Some instruments are in front, some are in the back, and everything in between. That means you don't want to apply the exact same amount of reverb to all your instruments. Independently of the use of reverb on the master channel strip to "glue" everything together, I would recommend learning the classic approach, which is to use reverb on Aux channel strips.

 

Start with one reverb plug-in:

 

On one of your instrument or audio channel strips, send to a bus, say bus 1. An Aux is created with its input set to bus 1. Click the format button below the meter to make that Aux stereo. Then insert a stereo Space Designer plug-in, and choose your favorite preset.

 

You can then send any other audio signal that needs reverb to bus 1. For each channel strip, the little pot next to the bus 1 send commands how much reverb you're adding to that signal. This allows you to place certain instruments up front (very little reverb), some in the back (more reverb).

 

As you get confident with that approach you may feel the need for more than a single reverb plug-in: maybe what works beautifully for strings isn't that great with percussions. That's ok. Send to bus 2, stick another Space Designer on Aux 2 and use that for your percussions. You can add as many bus sends as you need different reverbs for your mix. Keep in mind that 2 or 3 reverb plug-ins go a long way.

 

You may be interested in this article:

 

My interview with mixer John Rodd for Film Music Mag is up

[ski]

Some additional things to keep in mind... the "Hollywood Sound" is a concept, not a fixed formula. At the end of the day, your arrangement is going to determine what kinds of reverbs you use, how many of them you use, their individual decay times, and so on.

 

More...

 

Of course, a real orchestra is never heard entirely "dry". There is always distance between the players and the audience's ears. From the conductor's perspective, there's less distance between the players and his ears but he's still not hearing an entirely "dry" mix. The instruments further away from him will resound in the room and slap or boom back.

 

So those are just two perspectives. There are others.

 

Either way, the idea of using send to bus signals to reverb gives you with dry sound mixed with wet sound. This means that the dry and wet sounds won't be integrated. They'll be separate but heard simultaneously. That's not the same as what you'd hear from the audience perspective. Comes a bit closer to the reality of the conductor's perspective. But in any event, with the approach of using sends you get the best of both worlds: definition of the various instruments' attacks as well as the ambience.

 

Final thought... the overall sound of many film scores and trailer music (etc.) is highly manufactured and manipulated. Think of just about any of Hans Zimmer's big bold action-adventure scores. There's no way in the real world you'd be able get strings to compete against his huge horn sections, but they work in the mix all the same.

 

So with all these myriad perspectives in the back of your mind as food for thought, I have an exercise to suggest...

 

Take one piece of yours and, before you do anything, think about how you want it to sound in your mind. Then apply a Space Designer across the stereo output. See if you can find one that makes things gel. Don't be afraid to favor the wet balance more than the dry signal. Experiment with different reverbs and find one that, for the most part, works to fulfill your vision of how it should sound. Print a mix of that. Then, part 2 of the exercise...

 

Move that reverb to an Aux (so that it's no longer across the 2-mix) and set its dry level to zero, wet level at something nominal like -18. Now start using sends to get signal into the reverb. See if you can get a better result. Maybe you'll just end up with something different. Maybe you'll end up with something that's not as good. But I think this exercise will teach you a lot about reverbs before you get into the more complicated affair of using multiple reverbs.

[shivermetimbers]

Hello everyone

 

I write orchestral music and I don't know much about adding reverb to the track. I have just been sticking a space designer reverb on the master of the track, which lately I have found out isn't a good thing to do.

 

For people who write orchestral music in logic; what is the best way, in your opinion, of adding reverb to make it sound as realistic as possible? I would have though that just putting one on the master would be a good idea so that the orchestra sounds like it is in the same space? or should I create aux channels and give each separate section (brass, strings etc...) it's own reverb?

 

Thanks for your time much appreciated

 

You need to think more in terms of 'ambiance.'

 

Most people complain (or want to know) how to get rid of every track being right out there in your face. Yes the sound is right there, but I want it back there. How do I make it sound like its back there with out all that reverb sound?

 

Space Design has Ambiance presets you can adjust, along with the Pan and Volume settings - Or- You can try adding a Binaural panner instead.

[BadOrange]

in terms of orchestral recordings, Hollywood soundtracks are actually quite dry.

[Arkadi]

Hey this is a great topic. Maybe I can learn something new here.

Altiverb (for me at least) is hands down the best reverb. The IRs are beautiful with alot of depth especially in the low end.

I use a combination of different halls and various mic positions to give depth to the orchestra. Strings up front - most percussion in back everything else in between. I also use some PSP VintageWarmer2 for compression.

MIR is great but you need a dedicated super computer to run it.

[Ashermusic]

I am going to somewhat disagree with Arkadi and others. The only thing sonically that Alitverb has over Space Designer are the IRS themselves. There some very good third party IRs that can be added to SD, including some free Bricasti M&s that Peter Roos has. The big advantage to SD is that if you are running Logic 9 64 bit, it is 64 bit while Alitverb is not yet.

 

Secondly, convolution verbs are essentially snapshots and do not breathe like algorithmic reverbs do, I use a mix of SD and myaUAD Plate 140., which is gorgeous. Another composer friend of mine heard one of my recent cues and wrote me: "Which hardware reverb are you using? It sure makes a difference."

 

When Alitverb 7 is released however, it will have an algorithmic verb included in it to blend in and that will be a good step forward for it.

 

FInally, for orchestral simulation, you want your reverbs on busses, not outputs, not tracks.

[shivermetimbers]

... There some very good third party IRs that can be added to SD, including some free Bricasti M&s that Peter Roos has.

 

yessireee ...

[ansthenia]

Thanks for the help everyone, much appreciated

 

Them Bricasti M7 reverbs, are they worth downloading? are they better than the presets in SD?

[Ashermusic]

Thanks for the help everyone, much appreciated

 

Them Bricasti M7 reverbs, are they worth downloading? are they better than the presets in SD?

 

Yes, much.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Here's s'more (don't know how many links are still active, but it shows how many are out there):

 

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/printview.php?t=62458&start=0

[ansthenia]

So I have tried creating 1 reverb aux channel and having all instruments being sent to it, some more and some less depending on how much reverb I want on the instrument. I am getting better results than sticking it on the master

 

Using this technique means that all the reverb in the track is going to be in the same place. Would it be better for me to do it in a way so that I can pan the reverb for each instrument to where the instrument itself is panned? Or is having all the reverb in one place common for orchestra stuff?

 

Thanks for your time

[ski]

Personally I dislike having sections in orchestral music sound too directional. Too distracting. Panning a reverb would probably sound unnatural... I mean, to hear just one instrument or section resounding off of one side of a room? I dunno... But everyone's taste is different. I suggest that you pave your own way and do what sounds good to YOU, without worrying about how other people do things. Try out anything that suits your fancy, and if it sounds good then it is good.

[ansthenia]

Thanks for the advice, yeah I gave it a go but nothing melded together as well. Like you said I really need to stop concerning myself with what is "considered" to be the best thing to do and just do what I like and what I like the sound of.

 

Also...another reverb question Is there a way to limit how long the reverb tail will last for in space designer? I want to put more reverb on an instrument to help will the positioning, but I don't want the reverb tail to go on for longer than it already does. I know I could automate the volume to fade out when I want the reverb to end but it would help if I could set some sort of limit within space designer.

 

I appreciate everyone's help. I am not very good at mixing. I grew up solely working on my composing/arranging skills and was never really interested in working on the sound, but now I want to get my music out there and sounding good I'm trying to catch up

 

EDIT: nvm I can use decay time

[Rockdude9k]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned which I think is very important. How is the music your writing effecting the film. If its a very stagnant, creepy, unnerving scene, maybe you don't want a lush reverb, or less reverb. A dry solo violin is kinda creepy. On the opposite end if its a romantic scene or comedic you will probably want more of a lush verby sound.

 

Also keep in mind that the dub mixer will almost undoubtedly add more reverb to your mix and probably, in your mind destroy it. Unfortunately in film music we don't have the last word on anything. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't get it sounding the way you want it.

 

To answer your original question, I like to work with three reverbs and a delay. One "lush" 4 second orchestra verb that I use on strings, brass, winds, choir and piano. I then have two other reverbs that I use on percussion and drums. One that is shorter and one that is longer. I typically use the shorter one to get a room sound for a drum kit and the longer one on orchestral percussion or to get a big snare sound. I also use the delay on solo instruments but always combined with one of my verbs.

 

I set all of reverbs on four buss channels and they are all set to 0% dry 100% wet.

 

I use a T.C. Electronic Reverb 4000 rack unit for my lush orchestra sound.

Then the UAD EMT 140 and 250 for my perc sounds

Then the UAD Cooper Time Cube for my delay.

 

If i don't have access to those reverbs I use the MIR downloads in SD.

 

I also sometimes use a little EQ on my reverb bus's to cut out rumbly low end. I don't like to compress my reverb as some people do.

 

Unfortunately all the technical aspects of this discussion somewhat fly out the window when you move to 5.1 but most of us don't work in that realm so for the moment I won't comment on it.

 

Good luck and the best advice is don't read numbers and settings. Listen to your music. I academy award nominated composer I work with likes 10 second reverb on almost everything. So there are no rules!!! remember that.

[Rockdude9k]

Also don't be afraid to automate your reverbs and buss sends to create effects. Thats always a fun trick =)

[jsmanness]

For those looking to download the Bricasti M7 IR's with the Logic Presets, go to http://www.acousticas.net/World/IRs/AcousticasM7.zip. Peter Roos doesn't have Logic presets for his version of M7 yet, though it looks like they might be available soon. (From what I've read online, these links are completely legal to download. Let me know if I'm mistaken.) I did a write-up on my blog if you need help installing: http://www.jonathanmanness.com/2011/free-download-bricasti-m7-impulses

 

One more thing about orchestral reverb. If I want more clarity with the attacks, I'll add predelay to around 25ms. Move it up to 200ms just to hear the stuttering effect of a dry attack followed by the reverb. As others have mentioned, put the reverb in an aux and make sure the dry is set to 0% and the wet is set to 100% (0 db). Then you can use the aux-reverb channel in the mixer to adjust how much reverb is mixed, or how "wet" the mix is.

 

-Jon

[symphomaniac]

Just set up my old Roland MC-80 sequencer. Re-recording 20 year-old orchestral compositions, triggering my Kawai GMega synth, into Logic.

 

So I took the lazy route and decided to turn off the synth's cheesy reverb, run stereo cables into my Lexicon M300 effects processor, then to a pair of original Joe Meek (pre PMI) VC6Q preamps and finally into my Lexicon FW810s interface to get into the iMac.

 

I used a large hall preset on the M300 called "Gothical". Mixed at 35% wet, it had a ton of sweet bottom that matured later thanks to the 30ms pre-delay. The problem was, the instruments sounded dry because of the pre-delay. Apparently, the cheap, noisy reverb in the old synth (a large hall with an earlier reflection) had less or no pre-delay when I created the music.

 

In an inadvertent SYSEX mishap, I ended up recording a pass with BOTH effects engines on.

 

The combination of the tinny, grainy, reverb on the attack side and the lush Lexicon verb on the release is stunning. Life affirming! I tried to re-create it with two Lexicons, making one emulate the synth's hall reverb.. Not the same.

 

The piece I was recording had a broad range of tempo, dynamics and articulations.

 

Next, I'm going to try this technique with my plug-ins on my more current material. I'll experiment with using different bright / early to thick / late reflection ratios in an attempt to give each section of the orchestra a realistic identity and a focused position in the mix.

[gprok]

From all that has been said I will add this: -----------less is more--------fast strings passages will benifit using less verb to not muddy things up-------slow strings/wood winds or even brass would benifit more verb...etc.etc...

 

My approach is this::::::one slightly different verb for each sections + one plate to cover all sections and glue them together

 

And I never hesitate to automate the send so each sections sits well in the mix!!!!!! The worse thing with reverbs is to use too much of it

 

 

gprok

 

May I also suggest this' I have buy and follow that tutorial and this has changed my life

 

http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Products/Visual-Orchestration-3--DOING-The-Basic-Virtual-Orchestral-Mix__Spec-VizOrch-03-Dwnld.aspx