gritzildino Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I just did a little experiment to confirm that an undesired effect was happening in my projects.. and that was an undesired amount of signal being sent to aux busses... I set up a track going to the master out. This track has a send to a bus. The bus is also going to the master out. the track is at -0.1 dB (not clipping). I start to send to the bus and there is an overload in the master out... My impression was that when signals are being sent they are being sent as percentages of the original signal.. Now.. it would make sense for me that when i want to send a signal that the signal is umm.. sent... I cant even figure out a reason why u would want umm .. 'addative signals'.. when i was sending in the past i thought ok a bit of the signal is in the bus and a bit is in the original track.. P.S. I am still newish to producing looking for help.. I am using Logic Express 9.1.3. Is there a way to set it up so that the tracks signal being sent is not still in the original track, or would this produce unwanted effects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzfilth Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 You were wrong all the time. Adding and adjusting Sends is no going to affect how much 'remains' in the main signal path. In the simplest of situations, you send from a bunch of channels to a Bus and route that Bus into an Aux, which has a reverb plugin active. Now you can adjust with the Sends how much reverb gets added to that guitar part by sending this or that much dry signal to the reverb. If you want to have Sends independent of the Fader setting, switch them to pre-fader. Christian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritzildino Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) ok... So i was wrong all the time. What i want is to do is use the reverb as an effect. I slowly want a snare to blend into the reverb.. just as if i had the reverb on the snare audio channel and slowly pushed the mix level from 0% to 100%. There is no way to do this using send? What I was thinking.. maybe there is a way to link the send amount to the channel fader.. So that as the send increase, the fader decreases? Edited January 23, 2011 by gritzildino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritzildino Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 "In the simplest of situations, you send from a bunch of channels to a Bus and route that Bus into an Aux, which has a reverb plugin active. Now you can adjust with the Sends how much reverb gets added to that guitar part by sending this or that much dry signal to the reverb." ... This would also cause the same problems.. I would have the dry signal (from the bus) + the reverb signal.. which = overload. What is desired is The Dry bus signal - the send signal + the reverb signal = correct level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzfilth Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) You're describing a special case. Normally, you wouldn't want your mix levels to change just because you fancy some delay of reverb on some instruments. Anyway, two ways to do it. - use a plugin on the snare channel only - use a pre fader send and automate both volume and send Christian Edited January 23, 2011 by fuzzfilth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritzildino Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 You're describing a special case. Normally, you wouldn't want your mix levels to change just because you fancy some delay of reverb on some instruments. Anyway, two ways to do it. - use a plugin on the snare channel only - use a pre fader send and automate both volume and send Christian Yes. I thought about this. Using the plug on just the channel. That works. But. I also want to do this with other elements in the mix.. Now I have a bunch reverb plugs all with automation = to much headaches And. Automating the send level and volume slider at the same time is good.. But I thought it would be very hard to automate each one independently and keep the output at a smooth level .. i think also this causes too much headaches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzfilth Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I would have the dry signal (from the bus) + the reverb signal.. which = overload. If one single signal is maxing out your mix bus already, then you cant add anything without clipping. You might want to read up on basic level structures and ways to control accumulating levels, which is a quite basic necessity when mixing music. The Dry bus signal - the send signal + the reverb signal = correct level. What makes you think that the 24% you sent into the reverb still are 24% when they come back from it ? Mixing by numbers doesn't work. Never has and never will. Christian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritzildino Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 huh!? Its not about clipping, its about having the dry signal go down as the wet signal goes up. its ver easy to do on a channel i just want to do it on bus send. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzfilth Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I also want to do this with other elements in the mix.. Same concept as with a single channel. Route them to an Aux, thereby creating an audio subgroup, and automate a plugin's mix ratios there. Really, you're requesting a feature not because it's needed, but because you miss some elemental mixing skills. Christian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzfilth Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 huh!?Its not about clipping, That's what you stated. Overload = Clipping. Christian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritzildino Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 yes i was just using that as an example.. When i first did this in theory i had no effect on the send whatso ever.. So i knew when the clipping was occuring that the signals where being "added" together... I dont care about clipping i can fix that later. I just want the signal being sent .. to be sent. I feel like when i use the send I am in fact doubling the signal i already have.. which is undesireable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritzildino Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 Again this is easy to accomplish using an effect on a channel strip if the effect Has a wet/dry knob. But how to do it using an aux bus with an effect that can only be 100% wet.?? There should be somthing to link pre fader send and post fader output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Again this is easy to accomplish using an effect on a channel strip if the effect Has a wet/dry knob. But how to do it using an aux bus with an effect that can only be 100% wet.?? There should be somthing to link pre fader send and post fader output. What about setting the channel to "no output", and create two sends, one to a dry aux, and one to a wet one. Then you can have as many channels as you want automating their wet/dry mix with the send amount. Or if you wanted the effect to happen to all channels simultaneously, keep the sends at unity and automate the volume of the wet and dry auxs. Is that closer to what you're looking for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritzildino Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 Yes!!! That is very very smart... Just a little um.. wayword.. And not exactly understanding it right now... will give it a try Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Yes!!! That is very very smart... Just a little um.. wayword.. And not exactly understanding it right now... will give it a try Do let us know how you get on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritzildino Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 Yes!!! That is very very smart... Just a little um.. wayword.. And not exactly understanding it right now... will give it a try Do let us know how you get on. Yes. but im thinking now that you would have to automate the send to the dry and the send to the wet at the same time... Which in fact would be the same as automating the send to the wet and the output gain of the dry... which can cause a migraine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Yes. but im thinking now that you would have to automate the send to the dry and the send to the wet at the same time... Yes. You want to automate two parameters, so you'll have to bite the bullet and... automate two parameters. If the effect doesn't seem worth the "hassle", then don't bother with it. Which in fact would be the same as automating the send to the wet and the output gain of the dry... which can cause a migraine If it's pre-fader, yes. Except the values are directly equivalent, so you can quickly draw in inverted automation. I don't know about migraines, this only takes a minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritzildino Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 Yes. but im thinking now that you would have to automate the send to the dry and the send to the wet at the same time... Yes. You want to automate two parameters, so you'll have to bite the bullet and... automate two parameters. If the effect doesn't seem worth the "hassle", then don't bother with it. Which in fact would be the same as automating the send to the wet and the output gain of the dry... which can cause a migraine If it's pre-fader, yes. Except the values are directly equivalent, so you can quickly draw in inverted automation. I don't know about migraines, this only takes a minute. Ooo. Inverted Automation how do u do this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Ooo. Inverted Automation how do u do this? Don't get too excited, I just mean drawing one parameter up and the other down on the track automation lane. It really isn't alot of hassle, you only have to draw four nodes per channel to do what you want, and possibly curve the lines inbetween. Hardly migrane time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritzildino Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 ive done this u know.. and um.. it pisses me off because is dosent sound perfect some points are louder than others and i dont know what slope the curve should be.. and its not smooth enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 some points are louder than others That happens when you change the volume. What do you mean? and i dont know what slope the curve should be.. How do you want it to be? Maybe it doesn't need curving? and its not smooth enough Oh Ok, seeing as I've gone this far with it, I'll post a screenshot of what I mean shortly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritzildino Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 wow. ok. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Is this the effect you're after? Fade_Sends.mp3.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritzildino Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 Pretty much pretty much. I like to have it fade completely out into "white noise" U may have not add the reverb sett 100% or had the reverb log or dense enough.. because u can still hear the snare pretty clearly ... but that dosent even matter... For me I want things as easy as possible.. y have to draw two automations... when u should only have to draw one?? Whatever.. now ive got a migraine from thinking to hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 y have to draw two automations... when u should only have to draw one?? No, because you're wanting to change two parameters. The "mix" control on some reverbs is a simplified way of representing the wet and dry levels. On decent reverbs, you have seperate wet and dry controls, because you don't always want to have them act in a linear, inversly-proportionate fashion. Anyway, you go and lie down in a dark room and feel better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzfilth Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Gardening is a nice pastime which doesn't cause migraine. Christian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 U may have not add the reverb sett 100% It was, there was 0dB direct-out on the reverb channel, and as you can see on my screenshot, the dry send went down to minus infinity. You just want a more diffuse reverb. The principle is the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Gardening is a nice pastime which doesn't cause migraine. Yes, but how come I have to remove weeds AND plant flowers?!?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritzildino Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 I guessing u guys never had your cake and ate it too.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I guessing u guys never had your cake and ate it too.. That's why I'm so skinny and bitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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