FrankieDOS Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Hi LogicPro Users, Setting my speakers horizontal how do effect my sound perception? I have two MSP-10s Yamaha monitors rested on dedicated columns, my room is 3,5 mt x 4 mt x 2,2 mt (little bit small for that kind of monitors but do the job actually) and fully acustic treated. So there's a rule about monitors Hor/Ver position? Thanks a lot guys, this forum makes my day everytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 There's no rule that I'm aware of, though people will say there are rules about it. I think the only one who can really say what sounds right is you! Suggest you put the speakers in both positions and see which sounds best. Perhaps the best position (either horiz or vert) is where your ears are in line with the midway point between tweeter and woofer. You might also want to experiment with how close/far they are from your listening position (or, conversely, how far away you are from them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankieDOS Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 There's no rule that I'm aware of, though people will say there are rules about it. I think the only one who can really say what sounds right is you! Suggest you put the speakers in both positions and see which sounds best. Perhaps the best position (either horiz or vert) is where your ears are in line with the midway point between tweeter and woofer. You might also want to experiment with how close/far they are from your listening position (or, conversely, how far away you are from them). Thanks a lot Ski. Keep you updated ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpingInFire Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 If you turn them on their sides then which way will the tweeters point? Tweeters in vs. tweeters out has a pretty significant effect on your perceived stereo imaging. That's something you could use to your advantage if you find yourself mixing too narrow or too wide. I prefer to keep my monitors vertical with tweeters at ear level (not that my curved sided VXTs give me much of a choice). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camillo jr Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 The thing about putting speakers on their sides is that the audio is no longer time aligned between the tweeters and the bass speaker in the enclosure. When they are vertical, then the sound from each reaches your ear at the same time. But if you place the speakers on their sides, say with the bass speaker on the outside, the sound from the bass speaker will take slightly longer to arrive at your ear than the tweater's speaker, especially at close range. The result is that it's reportedly more difficult to judge your imaging. That makes theoretical sense to me although I never use my monitors that way. I know a freelance engineer here in town who gets a lot of work and he says he has no problem with monitors on their sides. I guess it's what you get used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentc Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 But if you place the speakers on their sides, say with the bass speaker on the outside, the sound from the bass speaker will take slightly longer to arrive at your ear than the tweater's speaker... Can you expand on that? I don't get it. How could laying a speaker on its side change the time it takes for the lower frequencies to hit your ear? I've seen many professional studios that have near field monitors mounted on their sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eriksimon Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 It's a difference of 1-2 cm, max (trigonometry). So the tweeters' sound would take 1/30000 (0,03 ms!) seconds longer to reach the ear than the woofers'. Call a friend, ask him to blindfold you. He lets you listen 20 times to the same music, whilst randomly (use coin) setting the speakers upright or on their sides. If you get the position right 13 times or more, there might be a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentc Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I can't image many people (if anyone) would pick up on a .03ms difference. But honestly I guess I'm still a little confused about the math here. (I didn't take trig!) But if the tweeter is 1-2 cm farther from your ear than the woofer, then wouldn't a small rotational adjustment of the speaker take care of that? The whole idea seems a little ridiculous to me anyway considering your head is not going to be in the same place all the time, even within the "sweet spot". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Wait a second... the distance between the tweeter and woofer are going to be the same regardless of how the boxes themselves are positioned. The boxes don't change shape depending on their physical placement. Or am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 It doesn't matter whether monitors are horizontal or vertical, you just have to orient them so the distance between tweeter/ear and woofer/ear is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 It's a little known fact that most people can't tell the difference if their listening to music right-side-up or sideways. However, upside-down is an entirely different matter. Much like a television, the brain can adjust fairly easily to an image that is merely 90 degrees eskew. But go the full 180 and you'll be lying on your back with your head hanging off the edge of the sofa! This is easily remedied by simply turning the television right-side-up again, but with music it isn't so simple. You would have to know with certainty that the record had been produced upside-down. The only way to truly fix this condition is to audition your entire music collection, loops and samples while A-B'ing using the UpSideDowner plug-in, which is located in your components/audio units/obscure/placebo folder. Once you've determined the proper orientation for the music, then bounce, burn and listen to your tracks in all their properly oriented glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 IYou would have to know with certainty that the record had been produced upside-down. What do you do when only some of the instruments were produced upside down? http://www.b4dirt.com/images/jackusd.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I think the answer is to phase-invert only one side, but you have to be lying down on one side to hear it correctly. Or, in some cases, to even hear it at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Since sound 'seems' to rise as the pitch gets higher, it would be a natural thing to keep the tweeters above the woofer. (Warning: turn your speakers down) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eriksimon Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Wait a second... the distance between the tweeter and woofer are going to be the same regardless of how the boxes themselves are positioned. The boxes don't change shape depending on their physical placement. Or am I missing something? I think it may be pretty academic. And/or psycoustic. Imagine the triangles emanating from the center of the woofer and tweeter. If the monitors stand, the distance from tweeter to ear is the same as from woofer to ear, if you put them on the side (with tweeters on the outside) the tweeters will be just a tad further away, unless you turn the monitors towards you so that the perpendicular to the front planes is pointing straight at the listener- only the will the distance be the same, so placement is crucial. This can be tricky in a small (bedroom-) studio. We all know the amazing capabilities of our brain to locate certain soundsources - it could make a difference. That's why only a blind test with a significant result (should really take 100 tests rather than 20) can answer this for any individual in my opinion. Oempf, that was a struggle. I haven't even fully conviced myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I was assuming that the speakers would be angled towards the listening position, not set up parallel to one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I was assuming that the speakers would be angled towards the listening position, not set up parallel to one another. Exactly. Which is why I posted something about ORIENTING your speakers earler. If your speakers are vertical but not perfectly oriented to your ear, there will be a time difference between audio coming from the tweeter vs the woofer. The vertical or horizontal position has nothing to do with that time difference, what does is the ORIENTATION Of your speakers toward your ears. I think it may be pretty academic. And/or psycoustic. It's really not. It's pure geometry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eriksimon Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I was assuming that the speakers would be angled towards the listening position, not set up parallel to one another. In America perhaps, but this is a very small country, we don't have room for that... The few times I've seen them flat, the were more parallel to the wall then to the listening position... And aren't our brains better at localizing sound in the horizontal field than in the vertical field? Anyway, it is academic, I don't think I can hear a difference. O wait, maybe I should take off my headphones... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Also keep in mind that while high frequencies are directive, low ones aren't. What matters more than anything is the position of the tweeters. A reason why I've laid monitors horizontally in the past is simply because I needed the tweeter lower and closer to center. The position of the woofers doesn't matter as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 The few times I've seen them flat, the were more parallel to the wall then to the listening position Then you'd get the same issue if the speakers are positioned vertically, are vertically parallel to the wall, but the tweeters are not exactly at ear level - which is just about EVERY single home studio I've ever been to. Also, if your tweeters are not oriented toward you, the time difference between tweeter/woofer is the least of your worries. You're creating much bigger problems than that. Tweeters should always, always face you perfectly when you look at them - both horizontally and vertically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 What do you do when only some of the instruments were produced upside down? http://www.b4dirt.com/images/jackusd.jpg As long as the mics for those instruments are also upside down during the recording, you're OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentc Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 It doesn't matter whether monitors are horizontal or vertical, you just have to orient them so the distance between tweeter/ear and woofer/ear is the same. Thanks for confirming what I thought was the case. I assumed it was a given that the speakers would be turned in toward the listener which is why I couldn't figure out how the woofer and tweet would be different distances from the ear. I actually will be turning my speakers on their sides in order to bring the tweeters down to ear level, or pretty close. I just need a pad to put under each of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camillo jr Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Ok, I tried a little experiment here..... turned my speakers on their sides... turned them back again... back and forth and back and forth (and at all times with a blindfold on so I couldn't tell which way I was setting them) and the imaging WAS EXACTLY the SAME every time! Another audio myth summarily dismissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eriksimon Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Ok, I tried a little experiment here..... turned my speakers on their sides... turned them back again... back and forth and back and forth (and at all times with a blindfold on so I couldn't tell which way I was setting them) and the imaging WAS EXACTLY the SAME every time! Another audio myth summarily dismissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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