MIDI Lag Processor?

[pedroflute]

Hi Logic wizards,

 

Is there a 'MIDI Lag Processor' for Logic? I found one, but it is PC only [spacef-CC5: http://www.spacef-devices.com/index.php?option=com_jdownloads&Itemid=3&task=view.download&catid=6&cid=23 ]

 

I can easily 'smooth out' MIDI's CCs MSB low res inside NI's Reaktor, but really need something equivalent to be used in Logic...

 

Or, would it be possible to make one in the environment?

 

Thanks for any help in advance!

[ski]

There isn't a lag processor in Logic's environment. Theoretically it's possible to make one, but it would be a little bit time consuming to create (for reasons which I won't get into just yet). Post back with a specific example of what you want the processor to do and I'll consider throwing together a simple example.

[pedroflute]

Hi Ski,

 

Thanks for your prompt response. I'll go to the point: I use CC2 [breath control] as main controller on my WX5 to shape volume in many soft-synths [also CC16, 17, etc.] in real time to affect many of their parameters . I can clearly hear the zippering [or quantizing] noise [consequence of these CC's MSB, 7-bit only resolution], so if there is a way to smooth it out that would be incredible. [For example, I solve this problem in Reaktor by putting an "Event Smoother" with 33-100 milliseconds after them CCs, giving an outstandingly smooth, almost analogue CV-like response]. In fact, I can hear this zippering noise in most synths responding to real time CCs since MIDI's implementation from 1983 [not so much from their internal envelops &/or LFOs, curiously].

 

Again, thanks so much for even considering this. It'd be a huge blessing to have this.

 

All the best!

 

P.

[pedroflute]

Again, I realize I was probably not too clear: literally, anytime I play from 'piano' to 'fortissimo' [soft to very loud] & back [in fact, any dynamic change consequence of my blowing] there is a very clear 'tktktktktktk' noise as I blow... not very musical & not very expressive [of course, if the WX5 could send both MSB & LSB, 14-bit resolution CCs, this would be much less].

Hope this helps to clarify a bit my question.

 

Again, thanks so much in advance...

[ski]

Hi Pedroflute!

 

Thanks for providing very clear details. Great!

 

After reading your posts, I have a design in mind. However, I don't know how practical it would be, and I'll get to that in a minute. After much consideration, I think that creating a lag processor would be a bit complicated -- though not impossible -- to program. And there would be limitations. Here's the design philosophy I had in mind...

 

Each time a new CC's MSB value is encountered, Logic's environment would generate all (or some) of the LSB's that would "fit inbetween" the previous MSB for that CC and then output the CC it just encountered. That would all happen pretty much in the blink of an eye. For example:

 

• CC#1, value = 1 is encountered. No previous value encountered. Environment assumes that the previous CC#1 value was zero.

• Logic generates all CC#33 LSB's for CC#1, value 0

• Logic then "echos" CC#1, value = 1

 

...and so on...

 

Detecting if the last-encountered CC MSB value is higher or lower than the previous value is easy, though generating a stream of upward-counting or downward-counting LSB's is making my environment instincts say "brace yourself!" , though I think it's entirely possible. However...

 

Even if that part of the scheme worked out nicely, two problems:

 

1) in order to create a true "lag", Logic would have to be running. This is because the only way to delay (lag) MIDI data in the Environment is to use either an arpeggiator or MIDI delay object, and they only operate when Logic's transport is actually in play or record.

 

2) the destination for this MIDI data would have to respond to the MSB values. And, as you probably know, very few MIDI devices (and plugins) respond to 14-bit CC values. And this is probably the biggest fly in the ointment: do all of that programming, only to have the rare MIDI device or plugin actually able to respond to the LSB data.

 

I have the feeling that in Reaktor, they're interpolating incoming MIDI data to give you the smooth response you get from the lag processor using a similar process to what I described above, or, they're interpolating the MIDI data and generating a much higher resolution Reaktor-specific data stream that various sound parameters (filter cutoff, etc.) are able to respond to in a way that sounds smooth.

 

So even if I were to tackle the problem, there's no guarantee that your MIDI devices and/or plugins would respond to the 14-bit data in the way you'd like it to. Still, I'll keep this idea in the back of my mind, and I'd be happy to continue the discussion with you here in case you have other perspectives/ideas on this very interesting topic you've raised!

 

Best,

 

Ski

 

[edited to make one slight correction]

[pedroflute]

Hi Ski,

 

You are absolutely right... your observations are 'dead on', too bad for me, really. I believe that what you mentioned on the later part of how Reaktor does it is exactly that [changing MIDI the data into + interpolating high res internal data], but, man, does it sound good! I so wish MIDI's 14-bit response was more prominently implemented in soft synths & other plugins... I just cannot believe how come this has not been more the case in almost 30 years of MIDI, then again, our world is mainly dominated by keyboardists, DJs & the like... we wind players are such minority that manufacturers don't feel they need to address these elements at all [of course, w/few exceptions].

 

Thanks again & please, if anything comes to mind, please, by all means, do keep me posted... this looks like a real impossibility, as far as I can tell right now...

 

Cheers & God bless!

[ski]

HI Pedro,

 

It really is rather strange that LSB control has been largely ignored in the design of so many MIDI devices and plugins. In fact, on an even more basic level, there are many keyboards (past and present) which don't have enough key velocity sensitivity to be able to generate all 127 possible velocity values (excluding zero, of course)! And having just come off a long stint producing my MIDI 101 tutorial, re-examining the MIDI spec all over again as a part of the process, there's such beauty and genius in the way the spec was designed. Sadly, many aspects of MIDI (as we're discussing) that could lend real subtlety to sonic changes (let alone alleviate zipper noise) simply aren't implemented.

 

Or maybe it's not so strange... As I think about this more, one reason I can think of for why 14-bit controls and destinations aren't more common is because having upwards of 128 LSB's for every MSB can really eat up a lot of the already limited MIDI bandwidth. With the advent of MIDI-over-USB and its much higher data transfer rate I'd think that considerations about bandwidth would be quelled a bit. But then again, compared to the sheer number of 5-pin DIN MIDI devices in the world, there are relatively few USB devices. And who knows what's going to happen with Thunderbolt!

 

But for the MIDI we know now, be it transmitted over standard MIDI cables or USB, I think it will be interesting to see how well the new high-definition velocity CC will be implemented in the future of MIDI devices. Certainly, 14-bit CC's (or full resolution 14-bit pitch bend) aren't exactly the norm, so I wonder how this new amendment to the MIDI spec is going to play out in terms of real-world implementation.

 

Anyhoo, it's nice to be able to talk shop with you!

 

Best Regards,

 

Ski

[pedroflute]

Hi Ski,

 

Alas, well said--yet--sadly enough... Still, a couple of points come to mind: 1. I just remember downloading Fader8's [plus your suggestion-version2] of a 14-bit ES2 environment [bTW, I then also realize that Sculpture also does recognize 14-bit MIDI CCs], which already, are great sonic options to try on hi-res modes... And 2. yes, as you mention, the old MIDI implementation paradigm would yet allow for @ least one [or two?] hi-res, 14-bit CCs. I'd be supper happy just with that! BTW, I completely forgot through this whole thing to congratulate you on your MIDI 101 instructional video... Amazing piece, really!

 

Again, I still dream @ the possibility of a better sounding option for us wind players in Logic [again, the Yamaha VL70M & Reaktor's ensembles just rock so bad!!!!]

 

Thanks much & keep up the absolutely great work...

 

P.

 

PS BTW, I started working on a heavy live performance-orientated environment for the WX5... I so would appreciate your comments/suggestions/criticisms/improvements if possible whenever the time comes in the future, thanks! God bless!