When switching pentatonic/diatonic works and doesn't...

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Hey,

 

Here's a question that's occurred to me off and on throughout my life, and I've never thought to ask anyone...

 

When playing a pentatonic solo, what is it about the underlying chords that dictates which of the extra two diatonic notes you can get away with sneeking in from time to time?

 

An example: yesterday I decided to give myself a break from weird time signatures and modes, and had a guitar-wank-fest with backing tracks I downloaded from t'internet; one was "Still Got The Blues" by Gary Moore, the other was "The Thrill Is Gone" by BB King (Who, incidentally, I cannot wait to see at Glastonbury Festival this year - it's been a life's ambition, I can't believe he's still gigging!).

 

Anyway, the Gary Moore tune allows for any of the notes of the natural minor to be played, and blue notes too. Whereas the BB King tune you can only get away with touching on the 6th every so often.

 

Why is this?

[chellstrom]

 

Anyway, the Gary Moore tune allows for any of the notes of the natural minor to be played, and blue notes too. Whereas the BB King tune you can only get away with touching on the 6th every so often.

 

Why is this?

 

I wouldn't necessarily say there are any hard rules against playing any note, but the notes played will generally sound more pleasant if they are included in the underlying harmony (the chords).

 

"Still got the blues" is more harmonically complex than "The Thrill is Gone". In the natural minor scale, the flat 6 sounds VERY minor and in my opinion doesn't sound that great when used in a bluesy context, while the natural 6th of the Dorian mode sounds much more pleasing to me.

 

However, don't let that stop you from trying anything. Especially when playing blues or certainly jazz, adding 'outside' notes will sound great when used well.

 

Playing the flat 5th and adding the major 3rd to the minor pentatonic ALWAYS sound great when playing the blues.

 

A little theory goes a long way, but always use your ears! If you're not comfortable harmonizing scales and analyzing key centers, try thinking of the notes included in the chord you're playing over and that will give you some ideas. Context and phrasing is everything.

 

Hopefully that helps.

 

I'll stop my rambling now...

[camillo jr]

+1 on the dorian bit!

 

I know a few players who think that because something's using the minor pentatonic blues that you should naturally use the natural minor on top and it ends up sounding not so bluesy for a moment. The Dorian scale usually works great with that major sixth in the scale. Like if you're playing these triads (read the chords bottom to top):

 

A B C

F G A

D D D

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Firstly, thanks guys for your responses!

 

In the natural minor scale, the flat 6 sounds VERY minor and in my opinion doesn't sound that great when used in a bluesy context, while the natural 6th of the Dorian mode sounds much more pleasing to me.

 

That's the thing, at certain times you can get away with anything.

 

A little theory goes a long way, but always use your ears! If you're not comfortable harmonizing scales and analyzing key centers, try thinking of the notes included in the chord you're playing over and that will give you some ideas. Context and phrasing is everything.

 

Yeah, I came from a point of knowing no theory whatsoever, and would play solos completely by ear, often to weird scales people with much more musical knowledge than me were playing. This skill has seen me well since learning the basics of the diatonic system and its modes.

 

I also have a good tradition of playing ape-s#!+-freak-out-anything jams, which is also a good way of developing your ear.

 

I know a few players who think that because something's using the minor pentatonic blues that you should naturally use the natural minor on top and it ends up sounding not so bluesy for a moment.

 

Yeah, dorian can be good, I usually find harmonic minor with a sharp sixth to generally work better.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Yeah, dorian can be good, I usually find harmonic minor with a sharp sixth to generally work better.

 

Just realized how crazy this sounds, but I'm sure I remember a guitar teacher telling me that bluesy jazz scales which have the same interval pattern as dorian aren't technically dorian, but a departure from the diatonic system. I don't know why.

 

One of my favourite dorian riffs is Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Hmmm... There must be a specific reason as to which notes work based on the underlying chords...

 

Where's BeerMoth when you need him?!?

[camillo jr]

The way I look at it is that there are so many common tones in that scale that it almost is impossible not to work. The b3rd and b7th both have notes in common with C pentatonic blues scale and with the blues chords. And the natural sixth has it's own special magic both harmonically and melodically. But I'm talking regular blues here, not the minor key kind like you might get in dixieland jazz with chords like these:

 

C minor F minor G minor

 

Here the scale is a natural minor scale, where the flat 6 (Ab) creates the minor four chord of F, Ab and C. So a dorian scale won't work here because of its natural sixth (A), although it will work nicely on the C minor chord. (As an aide here, play C, Eb,G,A, Bb together. It sounds like a very colourful blues/jazz chord. Now change the A to an Ab. Now the whole chord sounds like an Ab major chord, with extensions and with the third of the chord in the bass.)

 

But if the progression is major (but still in a blues context) we can see how all the underlined colour notes below of the C dorian scale create certain blues effects -

 

C D Eb F G A Bb played over this blues chord progression:

 

C7 F7 G7

 

So on the C chord the Eb functions as a straightforward blues note grinding against C major's E natural. And also in the process, creating this delicious blues chord: CEGBbEb, which in jazz circles can be reffered to as a sharp 9 chord: (C7#9) On the F chord, the Eb becomes the flat 7 - FACEb.

 

The Bb of the dorian scale becomes the flat 7th of the C chord and the sus four of the F chord and the flat three of the G chord. (G7#9)

 

And finally, our dorian A or natural sixth becomes the major sixth of C, the major third of F and the ninth of G.

 

Another way of looking at the dorian scale's natural 6th note is that it pulls into the b7th because semitones have more of a tendency to want to go to their neighbor than whole tones do. So it makes a great bend note for guitarists.

 

Yeah, dorian can be good, I usually find harmonic minor with a sharp sixth to generally work better.

 

Interesting choice! I guess it would depend on the underlying chords. The sharp seventh of that scale would sound not so bluesy to my ears. But again, it really depends on the context.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Yeah, dorian can be good, I usually find harmonic minor with a sharp sixth to generally work better.

 

Interesting choice! I guess it would depend on the underlying chords. The sharp seventh of that scale would sound not so bluesy to my ears. But again, it really depends on the context.

 

Ha! More interesting than I meant it to be, I actually meant natural minor, which is why I added that thing I heard about the dorian being used in non-dorian fashion. I guess whether you're using dorian, or stepping outside of the diatonic system but playing all the notes of dorian, doesn't make much difference to those listening... depending, of course, on the chords it's played over...

 

Though once you start getting chromatic it's easy to switch between natural and harmonic minor. Tons of bluesy-rock riffs use flat fifth and sharp seventh notes, often in chromatic runs.

 

Thanks Camillo, the fog is showing some signs of clearing for me!

[camillo jr]

Yep, those in-between notes (sharp 4/flat 5 and sharp 7) are all good! I think of them as the additions to the minor pentatonic that push it into blues territory. I also find that the sharp 4/flat five get used a lot more than the sharp seven for the simple reason that you can start a blues lick right on that note and it will sound fine almost everytime. But using the sharp seven as a starter note, compared to using it as a passing note is not so usual.

 

Gb F Eb C or F# G Bb C would be typical blues licks. But this:

 

B Bb G F is slightly odd although this:

 

B C Eb F works with the B as a lead in note. But then again, sometimes you just might just want to play the Five Chord's regular major third and that works too. Ok, sorry if I'm belaboring the point. I find this stuff fascinating!

 

BTW, the natural minor with a sharp sixth IS actually a dorian scale.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

BTW, the natural minor with a sharp sixth IS actually a dorian scale.

 

Yeah, I know the notes are the same, like I said, I'm sure I was told by someone with huge theory knowledge once that even though it's the same notes, it's not the same scale in some jazz contexts, which is rather odd.

[chellstrom]

 

Yeah, I know the notes are the same, like I said, I'm sure I was told by someone with huge theory knowledge once that even though it's the same notes, it's not the same scale in some jazz contexts, which is rather odd.

 

This reminds me of an instructor I had at G.I.T. who once said that there are probably more names for scales than there are scales!

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

This reminds me of an instructor I had at G.I.T. who once said that there are probably more names for scales than there are scales!

 

yeah, that sounds crazy enough to be true