Logicno8 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I learned that in ProTools, hard drive can't distinguish if there's any audio on the track. For example, if you have bounced track that is 3 minute long and the only audio you have on it comes in 2:45, ProTools will read all the silence before that and put constrain on your system as if there was recorded audio all the time. Is this the same case with Logic (and other DAW's) ? If so, than there's another way to save on my CPU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Of course. Silence is data just like audio is data. All zeros is data too. And there'd be no way to tell if the data in an audio file is all zeros, all ones (ouch, loud!), or some combination of ones and zeros except to.... read it. The solution for saving CPU resources on playback is to trim away the silence on the region. An even better solution is to trim away the silence in the audio file so that you end up with a region that only spans the length of the actual non-silent audio portion of the file, but that approach is not always practical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logicno8 Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 Of course. Silence is data just like audio is data. All zeros is data too. And there'd be no way to tell if the data in an audio file is all zeros, all ones (ouch, loud!), or some combination of ones and zeros except to.... read it. The solution for saving CPU resources on playback is to trim away the silence on the region. An even better solution is to trim away the silence in the audio file so that you end up with a region that only spans the length of the actual non-silent audio portion of the file, but that approach is not always practical. Cool, nice tips ski. Thanks a lot. I was expecting to hear that. Playhead must go over a region to see if there is anything (wave form) that can be reproduced in audio and if nothing is there, playhead still has to go and read that there is nothing in that file, hence just silence.But it still uses the same amount of memory as if it was reading recorded loop. I usually trim them but I trim them nondestructively. So that If I need something I can just expand my region int a file that I trimmed. "An even better solution is to trim away the silence in the audio file" Can you explain this a bit better ski please? I usually keep files in these small regions and as I said I expand the or shorten when needed. And I Bounce in Place if I want to have just that small piece as a separate file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 If you destructively trim an audio file to the actual size of the recorded musical parts then there's nothing to read from disk until the start of an actual region. In other words, region length = length of the musical part. But this shouldn't be necessary unless your computer system is so dog tired and old (or simply mis-configured) that it can't handle normal playback of regions from otherwise larger audio files. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logicno8 Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 If you destructively trim an audio file to the actual size of the recorded musical parts then there's nothing to read from disk until the start of an actual region. In other words, region length = length of the musical part. But this shouldn't be necessary unless your computer system is so dog tired and old (or simply mis-configured) that it can't handle normal playback of regions from otherwise larger audio files. Wow....wait, so you are telling me that Logic (system) is putting more effort in reading a small music passage that is actually a shorten version of a long audio file. In other words If I have 3 min file with 2:45 sec of silence and I grab ends of a file and shorten it so it plays only 15 seconds where the music is. That is more constraining than making this music part (these 15 seconds) the ONLY part of the region ? Like Bouncing in Place or going Convert Region to New Audio File. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redlogic Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 If I had a 3:00 file with 2:45 of silence, I would select the :15 of actual usable stuff in the Sample Editor and use the Trim Function. Then you would have a :15 audio file and a :15 audio region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logicno8 Posted June 22, 2011 Author Share Posted June 22, 2011 If I had a 3:00 file with 2:45 of silence, I would select the :15 of actual usable stuff in the Sample Editor and use the Trim Function. Then you would have a :15 audio file and a :15 audio region. Niiiiice. I usually avoid anything that contains word "destructively" but this is something I find useful. I like how Logic start panicking when I am about to accidentally f*%@ up my regions permanently That's so sweet Thanks for this editor window tip redlogic. I guess ski thought of this technique when he stated "destructively trim an audio file to the actual size of the recorded musical parts". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Yes, that's what I had in mind. How necessary is it to trim silent parts? Well, it all depends. If your computer is running out of power playing back audio tracks (or if your HD's can't keep up with the demand), then a first plan of attack could be to trim off silence where parts aren't playing. This can be accomplished by manually trimming regions, using strip silence, whatever. If things get really bad playback-wise then yes, then "destructively" trimming is a great idea. I can also see this being a matter of personal preference as well as helping with visual orientation of parts on a track. For example, I just recently sent 60 stereo audio tracks to a client who's working on PT. They were all consolidated to bar 1, beat 1. I would have preferred to send him much shorter files and name my files with a number reflecting what bar they started at, such as: 60 Timpani 31 Synth Sweep Lead-in 31 Synth Sweep Double 15 Lonely Cello ...but the client said that would be too much work, and that to make absolutely sure all of my parts were in sync that he'd like to get all tracks consolidated to bar 1/beat 1. Ultimately he ran out of voices (and power, apparently) on his PT system trying to play back 60 stereo tracks, so he did two things: first, he divided my files across two drives. Drums, guitars, percussion and bass on one drive (there were 5 bass tracks), strings, brass, and synth parts on another. Then he trimmed each region in his PT arrange page (whatever it's called LOL) so that a region only visually appeared when it had something to play (the equivalent of strip silence on all of my parts). So there's some perspective. Gotta run, HTH, Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Mayfield Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Of course. Silence is data just like audio is data. All zeros is data too. And there'd be no way to tell if the data in an audio file is all zeros, all ones (ouch, loud!) Loudest DC I've ever heard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logicno8 Posted June 22, 2011 Author Share Posted June 22, 2011 Hey ski, thanks for going into details. I would ask you to do the same If I was your client since I would rather be sure that everything is aligned properly than tossing regions around. Than before even hitting PLAY I would chop every single track so that silence parts are deleted. Now my sessions are divided into 5 or even more projects. I have a session just for recording drums. Than one for bass, one for guitars, one for vocals...etc. And I'm talking about a rock sound. My system just can't handle it. I was desperate. I had to bounce down song. Listen to it. Write down what needs to be done. than go to session, make changes, export again without listening. And so on, for every single break or part. It can't read in real time. It dies. That's why I'm willing to lear new CPU freeing trick always. Now if I understood, correct me if I'm wrong, when I shorten my region trip silence or just dragging one side, deleting with marquee) that has silence and audio embedded with it so I keep visible just performance parts of the region I save up some memory. But when I do that destructively (in Audio Bin with Trim command) I save even MORE ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 You're welcome! As an aside, the idea of printing tracks from bar 1/beat 1 is a pain in the ass for everyone. It ends up costing both of us time. For me: • more time to export, bounce, or record • more time to have to babysit files uploading to an FTP server or burning to a CD or DVD • larger disk space consumption For you, the client: • more time to trim down all the files • running the risk of clipping the beginning of passages that start with fade-ins, and similarly, clipping the ends of files that have fade-outs to silence The benefit for both of us: assuredness that all files are in sync. So the question becomes: is it really THAT much more work to align smaller files to specific bars? Prolly not, but there is the perception that having everything aligned to bar 1/beat 1 is the best. Sometimes it's true, sometimes it's not. Every situation is different I guess... Anyway... If I was sending you tracks and we were both working on Logic (which we are ) then I wouldn't really have to send you files from bar 1. I could send you a Logic session with files bounced-in-place (or at least positioned in place). Then, copy from my project, paste into your project (or import blah blah blah) and voila, time saved on all accounts! Now, if your system can't handle the playback of your tracks, then I imagine that: • you need a more powerful system • you need to be sure that you're NOT playing back audio files from your system drive (bad practice, and we've been down that road before in previous discussions) • bouncing tracks down (like the old skool days) to free up resources. This can be a temporary measure. Example: you have 8 tracks of drums. So, get a mix on them. Bounce them to stereo. Mute the individual tracks and hide them and lay up the stereo bounce. Work with that for a while. Then when it comes time to mixing, bring back the separate tracks. Now of course, at this point you may be out of power, but at least you can work within a single session while doing overdubs and additional production. I can play back those 60 tracks of audio I mentioned on my PPC Quad 2.5. It takes about 2 seconds for playback to start once I hit play, but otherwise it's fine. And if I wasn't so lazy about things I'd divide the tracks up between two of my auxiliary HD's and probably get better performance. So if your system can't handle playback of a rock session then maybe it's time to, like I mentioned, get a more powerful system, or try some of the other techniques myself and others have suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logicno8 Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share Posted June 23, 2011 Oh maaaaan....I think I just learned one BIG thing. After I switched to 1024 I/O Buffer Size, printed my guitars to a "tape" with a nice amp tones (removed all inserts and amp sims from a channel strip), used Freeze Track option....I felt like "well, man I did everything and I still get this System Overload message". But when I take into consideration all the Aux tracks and FX, all the audio, some MIDI data, a LOT of automation of everything....it's just too much for my system to handle. I thought "That's it I need new expensive Mac that I have no money for. Great, what now" But reading what you wrote I just realized that you're playing your audio back from some external HD !!!!!!!! I have 1TB internal HD containing everything music related. Logic, plug-ins, libraries, projects, all the other apps,...EVERYTHING ! And 2 of my external HD's are used just for software/project back up. So you are telling me that I'd be better off running my projects from external HD ? It would put less struggle to playback the audio ? And second thing....I think that If you hide tracks, you are actually still using them even though they are muted. So I'm not sure If Logic knows the difference between tracks that are currently being played and hidden/muted ones that are still in project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Oh, I could have sworn you were in on some of those conversations we've had here on LPH about optimizing a system. Well, anyway... Instead of searching for one of those threads, here it is in a nutshell (faster for me to type than search! LOL). Here goes: 1) Your system hard drive should never be used for Logic projects. Instead, projects should be saved on a separate and dedicated hard drive. It can be another internal drive (if your Mac has free drive bays) or an external FW or eSATA drive. Never USB drives (they're only good for backup or storage, but not for realtime streaming of audio material while running under Logic.) You'll save your Logic projects on this new "project drive", and within the project folders is where you'll record your audio. 2) Samples: stored on a separate and dedicated hard drive. As above, it can be a separate internal drive or external FW or eSATA drive. If you stream a lot of samples you should have multiple separate hard drives from which to stream them. Example: I have 3 hard drives just for sample storage/playback. That way no one drive is being taxed too greatly when I'm playing back sample-intensive stuff. 3) Rule #3 is "no exceptions", and "no excuses for making exceptions", meaning that you don't store projects on sample drives, no samples on project drives. (See below for the "one allowable exception"). 4) Drives used for audio projects should not be partitioned or used for anything else. Example: you have a 1.5TB external FW drive that you've partitioned into two 750G's. You use one partition for backup and another for sample playback. Big no-no. If, as in the case of my 60-track project you find that playback of lots of audio tracks is problematic you can split audio files across multiple drives. This means that you leave the cushy comfort of having all of your audio files in one Logic project folder. No big deal, just keep track of where things live. The only exception to the above is Logic sample/jam pack content. They're installed on the system drive by default. Fine. Leave them there. No sense upsetting the apple cart by trying to move them to an external drive to be in keeping with the above paradigms. What else... Using drive docks (like the Voyager) are fine and really super convenient too. Drives should be 7200 RPM, not 5400 or 10,000. Finally, your internal hard drive must always have at least 25% free space on it. More free space = better. And that's because your system needs to use the internal drive as virtual RAM for running applications like Logic. So... go out and at get yourself a project drive. You're on an iMac so it's going to have to be an external. Fine. Get an external 1TB drive for your projects. Move your projects to that drive. Guaranteed you'll have better performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 David or someone else might be able to chime in with more details (or more accurate information), but hiding tracks doesn't reduce CPU usage. Muting tracks does. I know there's a function on Sonar called "archive" which lets you keep tracks in an arrangement but disables/mutes them and saves CPU resources. Leave it to the PC guys to come up with something useful like that LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordi Torres Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Oh, I could have sworn you were in on some of those conversations we've had here on LPH about optimizing a system. Well, anyway... Hard Drive and Digital Audio Workflow questions You never take notes Logicno8! J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Right. I thought as much. Logicno8... DUDE! Read. Absorb! Then... Get up from your chair. Find your keys and your wallet. Leave the house. Don't forget to lock up. Go to the ATM and take out like $150 in cash. Go to Best Buy or the Apple Store or someplace similar that sells hard drives. Pick out a FW800 drive. Pay for drive, leave store. Go to Starbucks and buy yourself a nice Frappucino to celebrate, because you're on your way to better performance! But please, hurry the f*%@ up and drink it because you need to get home and format that drive! That aside, being that we HAVE been down this road before, you soooo deserve this: -----> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordi Torres Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 but hiding tracks doesn't reduce CPU usage. Muting tracks does. Here's another memory for that: Disabling tracks temporarily to reduce hard drive load? Take notes, Logicno8! J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Jackson Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Take notes, Logicno8! A real good method to recalling everything you are learning about on LPH.com is to create a database with URL's to relevant subjects (threads you've started or other threads you've stumbled across). I use Filemaker Pro for this but you could do this in many other programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logicno8 Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share Posted June 23, 2011 I'm so sorry guys but this thread meant to be about the difference in having 3 min of empty (silence) region and 3 min of audio data packed region. So we spontaneously came to HD topic. yes, jordito, I posted that first one indeed. And I just read second one. Nice stuff. I have problem comprehending all of the info I get here daily but I promise I'll try not to ask what I've already asked. And okay ski, I'll get my self a new external HD. Thank you for helping me out. I'll copy paste this in TextEdit so that I can reach for it whenever I forget Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Glad to hear it! And hurry up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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