dlmoody Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I want to have the most professional sounding mix possible with the tools that come with Logic Pro. I am currently working on an electro house track and I really want to get the kick to stand out, but not overwhelm the mix. Right now the kick just doesn't have the "punch" that I'm looking for in the mix as a whole. This is the current set-up I am using for mixing: I send the kick via bus 1, (pre-fader), to the side chain of the compressor on various bass and lead tracks. I edit the compressor so that the ratio is about 10:1 or so, lower the threshold to around -30.0 dB, and the gain to 0. I also set it to peak mode. Other than putting a little EQ on it and some basic mixing of the levels, that's pretty much my extent of mixing the kick. I know there is a lot that I can do to achieve the "punchiness" I desire from the kick using multi-compressors, limiters, etc., I just don't know where to get started. I know this is a broad topic, and would take a long time to explain to its full extent, but any help would be appreciated. Or any links that anyone recommends for this type of question. MOODY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 There are as many ways to beef up kick sounds as there are kick sounds! But there are a few methods that are common. A lot depends on the nature of the kick sound in the first place. If you like, post your kick sample here and let the collective make some suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlmoody Posted September 22, 2011 Author Share Posted September 22, 2011 The kick sample sounds pretty good as is. I can post my song as I have it right now if that would help as well. VEC3 Bassdrums Clubhouse 51.wav.zip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Ah, kick drum forensics! This one certainly didn't start life as a real acoustic kick. Synthetic for sure. After a quick look, it's got a sharp (and loud) crack attack which is just noise and lasts about 20mSec's and decays over about 90mSec's. The fundamental is a pitch envelope that lasts about 200mSec's, starting at 90Hz and ending up at 28Hz. I happened to be doing an example quite like this for a tutorial I'm working on, so I've attached a project file that demonstrates a method that gives you a lot of realtime flexibility and control over the punch. Basically it sets up a parallel path that's filtered to let you select what freq range you want to reinforce, followed by a noise gate that lets you adjust the speed of the attack and the duration (hysteresis) of the decay. Press play and listen, then unmute aux 1. Play with the cutoff freq's, and the gate's hysteresis first. Of course, the aux fader controls how much gets mixed in. Try this all out in context with your mix. With all that control over the sound, you can get it sitting nice and sweet in your song, without losing what you liked in the original kick sound. f8_kick_dlmoody.zip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simpleton Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Ah, kick drum forensics! This one certainly didn't start life as a real acoustic kick. Synthetic for sure. After a quick look, it's got a sharp (and loud) crack attack which is just noise and lasts about 20mSec's and decays over about 90mSec's. The fundamental is a pitch envelope that lasts about 200mSec's, starting at 90Hz and ending up at 28Hz. I happened to be doing an example quite like this for a tutorial I'm working on, so I've attached a project file that demonstrates a method that gives you a lot of realtime flexibility and control over the punch. Basically it sets up a parallel path that's filtered to let you select what freq range you want to reinforce, followed by a noise gate that lets you adjust the speed of the attack and the duration (hysteresis) of the decay. Press play and listen, then unmute aux 1. Play with the cutoff freq's, and the gate's hysteresis first. Of course, the aux fader controls how much gets mixed in. Try this all out in context with your mix. With all that control over the sound, you can get it sitting nice and sweet in your song, without losing what you liked in the original kick sound. nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlmoody Posted September 22, 2011 Author Share Posted September 22, 2011 Wow, that did wonders to my mix already. Thank you so much! I have a couple questions now. 1. How were you able to analyze the amp envelope, pitch envelope, frequency spectrum? Are there plug-ins that I can use for this? 2. Can I apply this same type of process to different instruments like a bass or lead and get a similar effect? Basically bringing out the sound out in the mix? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 1. How were you able to analyze the amp envelope, pitch envelope, frequency spectrum? Are there plug-ins that I can use for this? Yes, your eyes and primary school maths. Open the region in the sample editor and measure the wavelengths using the selection and the time display. 2. Can I apply this same type of process to different instruments like a bass or lead and get a similar effect? Basically bringing out the sound out in the mix? Sure. Replace the gate with a compressor, distortion, or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlmoody Posted September 23, 2011 Author Share Posted September 23, 2011 Haha, true. Currently everything in my mix is MIDI info. What is your opinion on MIDI vs. audio for these types of mixing effects? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 What is your opinion on MIDI vs. audio for these types of mixing effects? Once it becomes audio on a channel strip, it doesn't matter whether or not it was triggered by MIDI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlmoody Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 Cool, Thanks a lot for all your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetLab Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Awesome post Fader8. I appreciate how you give back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicguy7 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Play with the cutoff freq's, and the gate's hysteresis first. Just trying to get more "punch" out of my drums and reading this old thread, where is the cutoff freq control you are referring to here? is it the threshold in the noise gate? the eq carved out space in the eq b4 the gate? or something else? in the resulting sound, you are supposed to play both tracks 2gether right? the original kick and the bussed sound with eq and noise gate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhys Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Hi, I downloaded your template and was wondering why you used the linear phase eq? I noticed that when I swapped it with a channel eq that it seemed to lose a little bit of the low end, its hardly anything but I'm sure I can hear it. (let me know if I'm imagining it lol) I also understand that the linear phase eq has some latency, was you thinking of this when you designed this routing and is an intrinsic part of what you did, or... is it simply because its a better eq and it doesn't really matter about the slight latency, as you are only sending it a small band of frequencies and not relying on it for the main sound? Cheers for this tip btw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Hi rhys, The project demonstrates a form of parallel processing, meaning that the track's signal is duplicated in an additional channel, then the two are mixed back together. If you do ANY processing on one of them that shifts the phase of any part of the signal, which a regular channel EQ does, it will destroy much of what you're trying to keep! To filter without shifting phase, you need to use a linear phase EQ. The process a linear phase filter has to go through takes longer. This is because it has to run through the filter twice. The second time is what normalizes the phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhys Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Thanks Fader, I do use parallel processing "new york" etc but to be honest haven't considered the phase issue when adding an EQ to the parallel bus, I will certainly keep this in mind. If you do ANY processing on one of them that shifts the phase of any part of the signal I guess this is why I could hear some of the low end vanish when I changed it to a channel EQ, so Im not hearing things lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 If you do ANY processing on one of them that shifts the phase of any part of the signal I guess this is why I could hear some of the low end vanish when I changed it to a channel EQ, so Im not hearing things lol No you're not imagining it. The amount of damage you hear will depend on the content, how close the filter cutoff is to that content, and how drastic your filter settings are. That doesn't mean you can't use minimum phase EQ for parallel processing, but it's very difficult to control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaunji Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 SO I tried this out and none of the kick drums I select give the same amount of volume/bang compared to the one posted, is it because Logic's bass drums are softer and the audio bass drum is just more powerful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhys Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Perhaps Fader can give a better explanation and I'm working from memory on this (on iPhone) but the kick provided I think was a kick from one of the vengeance packs which are pretty meaty but... Could it be that you are using the same EQ setting on the parallel chain? If you are could if be that the part that is emphasised was tailored for the Vengeance kick and not the one you are working on? Try moving that band passed portion of the parallel EQ around until you find the sweet spot of the kick you are working on. Bear in mind that this will only be an extension of the kick you use and won't make it as meaty as the one provided unless you also use a kick that starts off this meaty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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