Plug-in Insert Order Importance....

[Red Robin]

I know that you should insert the Channel EQ plug-in before (first in the list in the Channel Strip) the Compressor for example, but which other plug-ins are such that it's important in which order they are inserted?

 

What are the tips, please? Example: Reverb before Delay, or vica-versa?

[Eric Cardenas]

I know that you should insert the Channel EQ plug-in before (first in the list in the Channel Strip) the Compressor for example, but which other plug-ins are such that it's important in which order they are inserted?

 

What are the tips, please? Example: Reverb before Delay, or vica-versa?

 

There are no rules.

Compressor before EQ is totally fine. It just depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

 

Reverbs and Delays are usually used as sends but as I said: "There are no rules"

A little reverb on the delay taps is a nice tip.

 

Don't over think it! Just mix and listen. Try to hear how each insert is affecting the signal. Swap things around and listen even more.

 

Good luck.

[Red Robin]

^ Good advice

 

I'm just trying to avoid any bad mistakes prompted by someone's tutorial saying it was important to EQ before compressing for vocals.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

I'm just trying to avoid any bad mistakes prompted by someone's tutorial saying it was important to EQ before compressing for vocals.

 

It depends if you want to EQ the signal feeding the compressor, or EQ the compressed signal.

 

There's some good basic points covered here: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct07/articles/qa1007_1.htm

 

In the acoustic guiatr example in that article, the same is true for a singer being too close to the mic and creating low-end peaks on consonants. You probably won't want that triggering your compressor.

 

Remember to check/adjust the compressor every time you alter an EQ before it in the signal chain.

 

Of course, there's no reason not to have EQ before and after the compressor.

[ski]

I'm just trying to avoid any bad mistakes prompted by someone's tutorial saying it was important to EQ before compressing for vocals.

 

There are tons of people on the 'net (and in tutorials as well) who try to establish these "rules" for plugin placement and order. Beware! If anyone says "you must do ____ " then there had better be a damn good reason why.

 

Think about it... let's say the vocal sounds perfectly fine just as recorded. No problematic sibiliance or p-pops. Truly perfect sonically and EQ-wise (and such a thing IS entirely possible, BTW). The only thing you want to do is give the vocal a slight bit of compression. So why then would you put an EQ before a compressor? There'd have to be a damn good reason for doing that. If you can name the reason (and "it's a rule" is not a reason) then insert the EQ. Otherwise, don't.

 

What are the tips, please? Example: Reverb before Delay, or vica-versa?

 

What?!! Huh? What is this video you're watching? OMG!

 

Reverb before delay puts the reverb'd signal into the delay, thus delaying the onset of the reverb'd signal and accumulating a wash of reverb "snapshots" (each snapshot being the duration of each delay). Delay into reverb puts reverb only on the delays so that each delay'd "snapshot" gets a wash of 'verb. Two different effects. So there are no tips to be had here, no rules, no conventions, just options.

[shivermetimbers]

I'm just trying to avoid any bad mistakes prompted by someone's tutorial saying it was important to EQ before compressing for vocals.

 

 

The 1st bad mistake is not knowing WHY you even use EQ or Compression.

 

Let's say you think you have the perfect take on your vocals after using your Neumann Solution DS microphone. Just for fun, you want to use your Behringer Multicom Pro-XL MDX4600 to compress the vocals abit. However, you are not sure if your dbx 231s EQ should go before or after the compressor.

 

Maybe there is too much bass and you want to EQ some of it out because the bass is a compressor hog.

 

Or maybe ....

[Red Robin]

What?!! Huh? What is this video you're watching? OMG!

 

Reverb before delay puts the reverb'd signal into the delay, thus delaying the onset of the reverb'd signal and accumulating a wash of reverb "snapshots" (each snapshot being the duration of each delay). Delay into reverb puts reverb only on the delays so that each delay'd "snapshot" gets a wash of 'verb. Two different effects. So there are no tips to be had here, no rules, no conventions, just options.

 

....I only gave the Delay/Reverb as an example. When I'm playing live I feed my mic (via preamp) into a Delay pedal first and then on to my Reverb pedal - It's not often that the guy on the mixing desk understands what sound I want plus it varies from flute to flute (woodwind). Just a tad of delay on the 'echo' effect tends to sound more natural.

 

I'll try it the other way around in Logic and see which I prefer.

 

Thanks for a very helpful description

[Red Robin]

 

The 1st bad mistake is not knowing WHY you even use EQ or Compression.

 

 

....Fortunately I've learnt why to use each: Today I've worked on two songs, each with a different female vocalist and one benefitted from compression (no EQ) in the overall mix and for the other I scissored a region and reduced the gain just in that section rather than compress the whole track. Horses for courses.

[shivermetimbers]

http://www.nedwebserver.com/ned-web/allaboutcompression&nedweb&site=MPV&asv=10&sid=f9gdekk4n4pks65k1if0dq0k97

 

Look at the very first tutorial about compression.

[Red Robin]

http://www.nedwebserver.com/ned-web/allaboutcompression&nedweb&site=MPV&asv=10&sid=f9gdekk4n4pks65k1if0dq0k97

 

Look at the very first tutorial about compression.

 

....Hey! Thanks for that - I knew some of it but still learnt some more.

 

The Compressor is possibly one of the most valuable plug-ins. Am gonna stay with using Logic's onboard Compressor though.

[shivermetimbers]

Look at the multipressor too.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

And don't miss out on the often overlooked internal EQ sidechain in the extended parameters.

 

There's a thread which mentions it here: http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=195807

 

(there's a bit of confusion about sidechaining towards the end, but fader8 clears this up in the final post)

[soundscaper]

Soundwise, post compressor EQ seems to get better grip on the signal, given you the impression your EQ works better and smoother

[shivermetimbers]

Soundwise, post compressor EQ seems to get better grip on the signal, given you the impression your EQ works better and smoother

 

That's why it is also a good idea to use the EQ pre and post compressor.

[David Nahmani]

The 1st bad mistake is not knowing WHY you even use EQ or Compression.

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

Also keep in mind that a compressor affects the dynamic of your signal, its volume, but also its frequency content. An EQ affects the frequency content of your signal, but also its volume.

 

There are no rules, you just have to work with your ears.

[Red Robin]

There are no rules, you just have to work with your ears.

 

....My ears are absolutely all I ever rely on. It's why I can play an instrument without knowing Western Music theory. It helps to understand the settings as a starting point.

[jman26]

As everyone has said, its all about what you what out of the sound.

 

What i wanted to add:

 

Lately i've been putting an EQ before AND after the compressor. Cutting with the first eq, then compressing, then boosting IF need be.

 

Especially with vocals, this has helped so much with plosives. Cutting up between 100 - 200Hz before the compressor really helps it deal with those plosives with ease because it doesn't have so much low end to try and stop.

 

Hope this helps!

[David Nahmani]

It helps to understand the settings as a starting point.

 

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by that? What settings?

[Red Robin]

It helps to understand the settings as a starting point.

 

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by that? What settings?

 

....Sorry, I was in a hurry when I posted that. To try and clarify: What I meant was by gaining some understanding of what the various settings (controls/dials/knobs/sliders) result in, it's easier to then change the parameters(?) to achieve what sounds best to us. There is of course an element of knock-on effect (now ask me what that means

 

I've noticed that I don't always use the same language as some of you guys here do. But we usually get there in the end and if such detailed discussion helps readers then it's a good thing

[David Nahmani]

What I meant was by gaining some understanding of what the various settings (controls/dials/knobs/sliders) result in, it's easier to then change the parameters(?) to achieve what sounds best to us.

 

I would have to agree with that, yes.

[ski]

What I meant was by gaining some understanding of what the various settings (controls/dials/knobs/sliders) result in, it's easier to then change the parameters(?) to achieve what sounds best to us.

 

Let's take two songs, where on each one you have a flute solo track. On song A the flute level is very hot and the performance very dynamic. On song B the level is somewhat low and the playing not as intense. In both cases you decide that you want to compress the sound of the flute. So...

 

• the threshold setting will likely be very different for each of those tracks

• the ratio is more than likely to be very different between tracks, because one might need more squashing than the other

• the compressor type you choose for one song might not be appropriate for the other song (i.e., FET sounds best for song A and "Platinum" for song B).

 

So really, there can't be any starting points for plugin parameters because every track is different!

 

"Starting points" come into play on a very different plane -- that of understanding what the various controls do to begin with. So yes, every time you add a compressor, an EQ, or whatever, you are dealing with "tabula rasa" (blank slate for the non-Latin inclined) and you have to alter the settings to suit the source material.

 

This is one of the chief reasons why channel strip presets are so bogus in their very concept; there's no possible way, other than by pure random chance, that the settings for any of the plugins of a channel strip preset will fit the source material for one's music. Same goes for individual track channels as well as output channels.

 

So the best way to approach what you need starts with your ears. If a vocal sounds plosive, you have several tools available. One is an EQ on its own, no compression. Start by finding the frequency surrounding the plosive and use a parametric band to cut it. Even here, the frequency, the Q, and the amount of cut are going to vary with the source material. There can be no preset. Now, sure, it can be said that plosives typically occupy a given frequency range, so it might help to get familiar with what that range is. However, the exact frequency, Q, and amount of cut are going to vary with the source nevertheless.

 

In fact, I'll take it one step further! You may find that there's just a single plosive on a vocal track, and that by setting the EQ to tame the plosive you end up sucking out the body of the vocal in general. And you never want to throw the baby out with the bath water if you can help it. So here, one approach would be to automate the amount of cut so that it only occurs in the vicinity of the plosive. For the remainder of the track the EQ cut/boost would be zero (essentially, no EQ).

 

The answers to "how do I set up XYZ plugin" starts with an understanding of what different plugins do, how they operate both singly and in conjunction with other plugins, and then applying them only as needed to achieve a desired result.

 

HTH with the perspective on things.

[Red Robin]

^^^^

As it happens, so far we have never had to apply Compression or EQ to any of my flute tracks within a song project. Even when I've played through a Distortion plug-in <-- A nice dirty sound. That doesn't mean that one day I may have to but the woodwind is far more subtle than that nasty metal flute sound. But your example is a good one and I understand the principle.

 

ski wrote:

So really, there can't be any starting points for plugin parameters because every track is different!

 

....The starting point is what settings are loaded when you launch the plug-in. You then start off by making some decisions based on experience and then change or adjust them according to your ears.

 

On the example of an explosive section in a vocal track and not wanting to globalise it with EQ/Compression, that's why after experimenting with the Compressor and also Limiter yesterday I then used scissors and simply reduced the gain on the offending part of the region.

 

I currently have a grasp of what most plug-ins do but not how they effect each other in conjunction. My approach is to minimise their use and think of them as correction tools unless they are a software instrument.

[shivermetimbers]

 

 

See if this makes any sense and if you can actually hear any differences about what this guy is talking about.

 

If it doesn't make sense, then 'shoot him in the toodles.'

 

[David Nahmani]

So really, there can't be any starting points for plugin parameters because every track is different!

 

....The starting point is what settings are loaded when you launch the plug-in.

 

I'm not sure how you define a "starting point" in your mind, but I would tend to agree with ski's statement that really, there can't be any starting point for something you don't know yet.

 

That makes about as much sense as saying that when cooking, a starting point for the amount of flour is the amount you have in the pack of flour when you take it out of the closet: huh? We don't even know what you're cooking, and we don't even know how much flour there is in your closet.

[Red Robin]

 

See if this makes any sense and if you can actually hear any differences about what this guy is talking about.

 

 

....I'm relieved to say that I could hear those differences.

 

Very useful vid and a nice guy too. I think I preferred her vocal without some of the EQ applied - I preferred the brightness.

 

Am gonna revisit Lauren's vocal tomorrow and see what else I can bring out in her lower freq range.

 

That vid illustrates very well how much better you can control a piece of old skool rack hardware.

[Red Robin]

So really, there can't be any starting points for plugin parameters because every track is different!

 

....The starting point is what settings are loaded when you launch the plug-in.

 

I'm not sure how you define a "starting point" in your mind, but I would tend to agree with ski's statement that really, there can't be any starting point for something you don't know yet.

 

That makes about as much sense as saying that when cooking, a starting point for the amount of flour is the amount you have in the pack of flour when you take it out of the closet: huh? We don't even know what you're cooking, and we don't even know how much flour there is in your closet.

 

....Now you're being a bit pedantic. You launch the plug-in and it's default settings are what you start off with - I'm not going to spend time debating this subject of starting point further - It is what it is - It's that simple so why complicate it? You make a logical point but it's almost merely exercising intellect. Either that or you simply don't understand the way my mind works - No matter.

 

I'm not disagreeing with anyone here and am learning from some of your posts 8)

[David Nahmani]

....Now you're being a bit pedantic.

Maybe you're right, my apologies. I just think ski was making an important point and your answer to him (explaining to him what a starting point is, when he just made the point that there can't be a starting point) may have indicated that you did not 'get' his point.

 

This is all getting rather complicated over the internet. I'm sure this discussion would be much easier in person.

 

Anyhow you got it, I got it.

[Red Robin]

Yes you're right, David - It's so easy to slightly misunderstand people via the internet medium. Plus I am guilty of sometimes playing devil's advocate.

 

You guys are across the pond so it's unfortunately unlikely we'll meet. I don't visit America so much now and may never do so again.

[ski]

ski wrote:

So really, there can't be any starting points for plugin parameters because every track is different!

 

....The starting point is what settings are loaded when you launch the plug-in. You then start off by making some decisions based on experience and then change or adjust them according to your ears.

 

Please pardon me for proposing a potentially pedantic point pertaining to plugins! The settings are not starting points. They're "default settings", meaning that they're the same each time you open up any given plugin. And judging by the default settings of the compressor, to name one, the default values chosen by the person who programmed those values sometimes have a lot to be desired. Gain at +4 to start with? Yowza! See, back in the days when we had studio assistants, part of their job was to reset the studio between sessions. All EQ's set flat, all compressors set to (basically) zero effect, and so on. And if the guy who programmed those values worked in an actual studio he'd get yelled at!

 

All that aside, I think you got the point, and I'm glad at that.

 

I currently have a grasp of what most plug-ins do but not how they effect each other in conjunction. My approach is to minimise their use and think of them as correction tools unless they are a software instrument.

 

I'll give you one other outlook on this... Plugins can be used for sonic creativity as much as they can be used to repair/fix. For example, I routinely EQ orchestral samples to bring out the air in woodwinds and strings. That's enhancement, not repair. On the flip side, I'll reduce the lower mids in a timpani and raise a peak in the upper mids to enable it to speak better. Solo'd, the timp parts will sound awful. But in the mix they sound exactly like what you'd want to hear.

 

Ultimately, there's no such thing as audio purity when it comes to making recordings. There's only what sounds good and what doesn't. With every song, every project, you start with nothing. And from there, everything's fair game.

 

Oh look at me getting all philosophical and stuff. Gotta go now.

 

[David Nahmani]

Oh look at me getting all philosophical and stuff.

 

I love it. You should try it more often.

 

PS: I strongly agree with all your points! I think the +4 dB default setting is a marketing decision - you know, so that people inserting the compressor on a channel strip instantly hear that channel strip better and believe that the compressor plug-in is responsible for that.