Interesting new patent from Apple: Polyphonic Note Detection

[blinkofani]

Hi,

Go check this out: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20110247480 . I think we'll have Melodyne Editor features in the new Logic... unless it's for GarageBand only

 

Blink

[Red Robin]

And how would this be useful? [RR asks in ignorance]

 

I know that technology never stops advancing but is Logic 10 really as close as some folks are suggesting?

[beej]

Pretty cool. It's definitely something that could be useful in GB (for instance, chord analysis), with something a bit more powerful for LP (like, as they mention, tuning individual strings within a recording guitar performance) or other Melodyne-like stuff.

 

This might imply that, as has been requested, LPX might include flex-pitch in addition to flex-time, with this system, or something related to it, being included.

 

Also, Apple have a history of delaying patent publishing to not give away too much information to the competition, so this *could* indicate that LPX might be coming fairly soon (which many of us suspect anyway) - or on the other hand, it could be a patent recently submitted for something they are working on refining for some point in the future.

 

Or it might not even see the light of day...

 

You decide...

[David Nahmani]

(October 13th, 2011) current methods do not detect notes within a polyphonic sound, for example, to allow the tuning of all strings of a guitar with a single strum

 

Huh??? You could do that with your iPhone and a $4.99 app last year already!

 

(December 16th, 2010) Tune all strings at once! Just strum your guitar, and see the pitch of all strings instantly.

 

Source: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/polytune/id364009203?mt=8

 

http://a3.mzstatic.com/us/r1000/023/Purple/20/6f/a0/mzl.nyjfspzh.320x480-75.jpg

[bchamorro]

The new version of the DAW from Presonus called Studio One just came out and it has built-in Melodyne in it.

 

http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/presonus-studio-one-version-2-features-melodyne-pitch-correction-506983

 

 

I've read on Gearslutz that if Logic X doesn't come out anytime soon then some people will be moving to Studio One.

[Jordi Torres]

I've read on Gearslutz that if Logic X doesn't come out anytime soon then some people will be moving to Studio One.

 

As if Logic 9 were broken or something

 

J.

[David Nahmani]

I've read on Gearslutz that if Logic X doesn't come out anytime soon then some people will be moving to Studio One.

 

Honestly, I've read that kind of comment ever since I started using Logic 13 years ago. If you go to a Pro Tools forum you'll read the same comments from Pro Tools users (if the next version of Pro Tools doesn't have bounce offline etc....), and from just about any DAW users. I think DAW users like to entertain switching platforms, and they believe that by threatening to switch they'll get faster results from the manufacturers. Meanwhile Pro Tools still doesn't offer offline bounce and it's still doing great. If 3 gearslutz members decide to switch to Studio One that won't affect Logic much, and I'd be willing to bet that 2 out of 3 end up switching back to Logic because Studio One is missing some obvious features that Logic has always offered.

 

No DAW can do it all. If you keep comparing your DAW to other DAWs you'll be forever disappointed, no matter what DAW you're using. It's a futile exercise.

[euph0ric]

That is exactly this amazing (if you ask me) feature:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=F3J8SFhoe10

 

Cheers

[mwproject]

Checking out a demo of Studio One 2 right now. I must say, the audio quantize engine is impressive as far as ease of use is concerned. I am hoping for such improvement to flex time in Logic 10. I'm fine with the way it works in 9 really, but after using in Studio One 2, I'm a little jealous. Edited some multi tracked drums. I like how it works. Very very similar to Logic's Flex time (slicing mode) for multitrack drum editing but really better implemented and straight forward. I don't plan on switching, just sayin.

[blinkofani]

To respond to bchamorro's claim, from what i understand only the more expensive version of Studio One has a Melodyne Essential licence included. The other two are just compatible with the new API called ARA. So, you have to buy whatever version of Melodyne 1.3 and upward to get the new features, which are great.

 

In fact, it removes all the complaints i had about using Melodyne in a DAW. The integration is now seamless. Great advance i think in terms of integration of a plugin inside a DAW. I just hope Apple makes the new Logic version compatible with ARA or bring us something similar, or even more awesome !!!

 

Blink

[David Nahmani]

I looked at the video... I have to agree the feature is pretty amazing...

[Nublu]

Very cool feature. I like that Melodyne licensed the tech to Presonus.

 

I really like that the video states that other DAWs and Plug-ins are coming.

 

I wonder if there's a time in the future where I find myself saying "Nah, I never practice. It's so-o-o twentieth century".

[David Nahmani]

I wonder if there's a time in the future where I find myself saying "Nah, I never practice. It's so-o-o twentieth century".

 

In the future all you'll have to do is record a single note. Then you'll be able to copy it, paste it, repeat it, resize it, edit it, mutate it, quantize it, tune it, pitch it, flex it, transform it, change its formants to make it sound like any instrument you want, and build an entire song out of that single note.

 

 

[Nublu]

As far as recording that single note goes....... I could ask into an iPhone (politely of course) "Siri record a note (please) ... and make it noteworthy".

[orcasound]

Cant wait for Logic 10 - here's hoping that ARA tech is in LPX - Hopefully Logics will stick with Celemony - Melodyne is the leader in this tech for sure - Maybe the presinus folks were the first to the table - so they got first dibs -

 

More interesting - Steffen Gehring and Marcis Sapp's names are on the patents - they are Logic team guys in Germany -

If you look a little into the patent site - you can see that Steffen was also listed for a patent in 1/2011 for transient detection, again at the end of July 2011 - for "Visual mixing" - sounds very "garage-bandy" and now the polyphonic detection.

 

Theres no doubt that these are related to the new LPX - Anything from apple - music related - and german = Logic

 

lets go fellas - release this oh, about - thursday - and steal some avid thunder this weekend - even though you wont be at the show.

 

I cant help but thinking that ex Avid PT Guru - Dave Leopold - who joined apple several years ago - has been sitting quietly working the L-team waitig to unleash a serious beast.

 

 

kj

[orcasound]

thats - Lebolt - sorry spell check.

[David Nahmani]

Steffen Gehring and Marcis Sapp's names are on the patents - they are Logic team guys in Germany

 

I had the pleasure to meet Steffen a few years ago. Great guy, young guy too. If I remember correctly he's the developer behind Ultrabeat.

[orcasound]

Looks like he along with the others have been quite busy. Those patents look very "interesting" -

More importantly - I would hope that Logic isn't too late to the game here -

PT has 9 - now rumored 10 fairly soon -

Presonus V2 is here - and while not nearly a player like PT or Logic - undoubtedly has some cool features

Reason 6 - out.

Live 9 -

Its Apple's turn.

I would suspect PT goes 64bit this weekend (though I'm still waiting an annoucement that AVid buys MOTU...)

 

Regardless - I think with the strides of L9 - Apple really had a chance to make great strides on PT - while its not a game, it is a matter of respect - and it is healthy competition.

PT had to go native to continue breathing, L9 had them on the run - so the boys from Germany should launch one back.

 

Here's hoping that you can release your LPX book here soon.

 

kj

[David Nahmani]

You know, today I went to a restaurant, and ordered some food to go. After about 10mn the manager came to tell me "your order will be ready in one minute". I immediately replied: "That's completely fine, I can wait". My thought process was, I'd rather wait another 5mn and have great food, properly prepared the way the chef intended, than have my food right away, but rushed.

 

Same with Logic. I'd rather have a solid release a year from now, than a rushed release full of bugs next week.

 

Let them take their time. All this competition between manufacturers, and the clients pushing them to catch up with the competition is in my opinion responsible for all the bugs we're seeing in v X.0 releases. Companies have to hurry up, they push their developers, beta tester teams are getting smaller and smaller, in-house testing becomes almost inexistent, software releases are rushed for marketing reasons, and us comparing Logic with the competition and posting comments such as "come on Apple, how come you don't have X or Y feature? XYZ product has had it for 6 months now!!" is only encouraging them to continue on that path.

 

Then at the other end of the spectrum you see comments in our "New Feature Suggestion" database such as:

 

No New features until Current Problems are Addressed

 

No bugs

 

If you're Apple, who are you going to listen? Unfortunately, catching up with the competition is more important to the marketing team than fixing bugs. And why is that? Because the marketing teams know that us users are more concerned with flashy new features than bug fixes. How do you think a Logic 9.2 version release tomorrow which contain ONLY bug fixes, but no new features, would be received by the community? Horribly.

 

Personally, I want to send the message to Apple that I'm not in a hurry. I can wait. I'm perfectly happy with Logic 9, and if I need polyphonic pitch editing I know there are other products out there I can use instead of or in addition to Logic. Most of the time I don't really need it anyway. Why is it that all of a sudden everybody needs polyphonic pitch editing, and need it to be perfectly integrated, super fast, and seamless, etc...? Of course, it's nice, flashy, impressive, great, amazing... but is it necessary? Not to me.

 

That's ok Chef, I can wait another few minutes for my food, just take your time and make it tasty.

 

That's ok Apple, I can wait another few months for my Logic update, just take your time and make it ready and stable.

 

This was an editorial.

 

Here's hoping that you can release your LPX book here soon.

 

Thank you for that comment. I truly appreciate it.

[orcasound]

David - dot't get me wrong - Im in a 100% agreement with you -

I'd prefer a stable release - over a new flashy bug-laden release. And I am patient. I must admit I was vey pleased with L9 at release time - I think they really stepped up the game their - then 64bit update right before NAMM - they had people talking as well. Sure were there bugs... are there bugs... hell - DAW's will always have bugs.....

-

but as an Apple user for 25 years - I must admit that I take great pride with their successes - especially after the "lean years".

So for me its not so much about the latest greatest - flashy stuff- I enjoy the battle of the DAWS... yeah I've got my DAW - it does what I need it to do - It pays my bills, feeds my kids - and with L9 - I really am a happy camper, - but I also enjoy seeing Apple (Logic team included) kicking butt. (we have a sign on restroom in the studio - that reads - "Pro Tools Room" - Yes a bit childish - but nonetheless - you get the point.

 

( admittedly I do get pretty tired my colleagues spouting off PT this - PT that... industry standard this, industry standard that.)

I used DP for 15 years - actually it was just P then - went through a brief love affair with Opcode's Vision and a short time with Emagic's Logic

Fact is - the group at Logic have been around the block long enough to understand the importance of marketing for the success of their DAW platform.

I am ecstatic with LP9 - and I'll wait patiently for the release - but as fast as technology is moving - and with competition getting fierce - LP X lets the user base, potential user base, the recording community in general know that Apple still wants their business.

[David Nahmani]

we have a sign on restroom in the studio - that reads - "Pro Tools Room"

 

Now that was hilarious.

[Red Robin]

^^^^

I agree wholeheartedly with David's 'editorial'.

 

I'd rather see improvements to the GUI and don't see what's wrong if Logic does look more like GarageBand if it results in it being more intuitive and easier to use. Why does 'Pro' have to mean 'complicated'?

.

[orcasound]

Red Robin - agreed.

 

If LPX looks like GB a bit more - so be it - (at least let us keep the mixer window LOL) - But yes anything that makes what we do - easier - saves time, and makes us more profitable in the long run - I'm for that. While I would never entertain moving to sometihng like the Presonus DAW - I must admit the ARA technology and the way its integrated - is pretty impressive - but I am sure that Logic will incorporate the same with celemony or give us something even better.

 

"pro" doesnt have to mean complicated. - but as professionals we do need certain tools - and we've seen that Apple has a habit for wanting even pro users to conform to their iWorld. //

I dont think the L team in Germany will let that happen - I'm not concerned, like many others that LPX will be dumbed down, feature-void" and consumer based like GB - I more excited to see what those crazy German guys come up with.

Whatever it is - I'm sure it will blow us away.

[Jope]

I've read on Gearslutz that if Logic X doesn't come out anytime soon then some people will be moving to Studio One.

 

Honestly, I've read that kind of comment ever since I started using Logic 13 years ago. If you go to a Pro Tools forum you'll read the same comments from Pro Tools users (if the next version of Pro Tools doesn't have bounce offline etc....), and from just about any DAW users. I think DAW users like to entertain switching platforms, and they believe that by threatening to switch they'll get faster results from the manufacturers.

 

The same mechanism is running whe people who used to vote for the Republicans now vote for the Democrats (or vice versa) and think all problems will vanish somehow. Imagine how disappointed they are when they have to go to work the day after the election yet.

[beej]

"pro" doesnt have to mean complicated

 

Just a general point on this while we are here:

 

No. But it doesn't have to mean "dumb" or "requires no effort or learning" either.

 

I couldn't pick up a copy of Maya and make cinematic quality 3D visuals in my first evening either - it would require a lot of effort, tuition, learning and experimenting, geting to grips with the fundamentals and how to make them work within the tool. If my goal was to bash out a quick 3D model of my garage, I'd pick up an appropriate tool for my level - say a copy of Google Sketchup - and very quickly and intuitively I'd get to my goal.

 

I wouldn't complain that Maya should be made more simple for the entry-level folks because I just want to use what the big boys use.

 

Pro tools are (should be) toolsets for people who are beyond the entry-level stage, or at least have some experience and are willing to put the effort in to making the tools work for them.

 

The downside of everyone being able to access these tools is that many of those people don't have what it takes to drive them - and that's not the fault of the complexity of the tool, in the main.

 

I'm fine for letting GB be GB, with an interface targeted appropriately to it's intended userbase, and LP being LP, targeted to people who, well, have rather more demanding requirements...

[redlogic]

"pro" doesnt have to mean complicated

 

Just a general point on this while we are here:

 

No. But it doesn't have to mean "dumb" or "requires no effort or learning" either.

 

I couldn't pick up a copy of Maya and make cinematic quality 3D visuals in my first evening either - it would require a lot of effort, tuition, learning and experimenting, geting to grips with the fundamentals and how to make them work within the tool. If my goal was to bash out a quick 3D model of my garage, I'd pick up an appropriate tool for my level - say a copy of Google Sketchup - and very quickly and intuitively I'd get to my goal.

 

I wouldn't complain that Maya should be made more simple for the entry-level folks because I just want to use what the big boys use.

 

Pro tools are (should be) toolsets for people who are beyond the entry-level stage, or at least have some experience and are willing to put the effort in to making the tools work for them.

 

The downside of everyone being able to access these tools is that many of those people don't have what it takes to drive them - and that's not the fault of the complexity of the tool, in the main.

 

I'm fine for letting GB be GB, with an interface targeted appropriately to it's intended userbase, and LP being LP, targeted to people who, well, have rather more demanding requirements...

THIS!

[kongwee]

I wonder if there's a time in the future where I find myself saying "Nah, I never practice. It's so-o-o twentieth century".

 

In the future all you'll have to do is record a single note. Then you'll be able to copy it, paste it, repeat it, resize it, edit it, mutate it, quantize it, tune it, pitch it, flex it, transform it, change its formants to make it sound like any instrument you want, and build an entire song out of that single note.

 

 

 

With filter, ADSR and LFO too.

[sprout]

While I would never entertain moving to sometihng like the Presonus DAW - I must admit the ARA technology and the way its integrated - is pretty impressive - but I am sure that Logic will incorporate the same with celemony or give us something even better.

+1 for something like Celemony ARA! Helps developers write better/ smarter plugins, easier to use.

[schlomojorgensen]

why you diggin up old threads man?

[sprout]

why you diggin up old threads man?

The text I quoted to was part of this thread. Though it's 6 years old, I'd like the discussion to continue to enrich everyone. I think the needs are getting urgent, having waited for Apple to implement richer syncing between Logic and third party apps/plugins. Apple is falling way behind the competition on this one: Presonus Studio One, Cakewalk Sonar, Magix Samplitude Pro, Acoustica Mixcraft and Tracktion all implemented Celemony ARA ( http://www.celemony.com/en/service1/about-celemony/technologies?checkLang=1 )

 

To understand the problem, AU v3 API is limiting for someone like me who wants to write score notation software that syncs bi-bidirectionally, being able to edit MIDI and flex-pitched audio as notes from Logic or from the app where the data is also displayed. The app would provide automatic harmonic analysis on the fly.

 

It's ridiculous to have to playback to sync the data, like Melodyne requires under Logic Pro X. 

 

Current music notation apps like Sibelius must import/export MIDI and they provide very limited analysis. Synfire is the closest dream app but it doesn't display score notation. It has other analysis limitations. You have to program secondary chords. It's not a very assistive or educational app for beginners or intermediate composers wanting to learn music theory.

 

Mapping Tonal Harmony Pro is much better to assist composition and see what's going on but it has no syncing at all and no MIDI import. Synfire is the best for syncing with DAWs while displaying Roman Numeral analysis.  I can do without its piano roll style note pattern system.