Score Editor: Transposing Chords for Lead Sheets

[Music Spirit]

I have not found a way to transpose chords en masse to a different key for purposes of putting an existing completed arrangement or lead sheet of a song into a different key for a singer.

 

The only way Logic transposes chords is if you create a template where the Staff Style transpose chords and notes globally to the key of a transposing instrument eg Bb trumpet or Eb saxophone.

 

The problem is that it SOUNDS in concert even though it is tranposed, so if you want to revoice say piano chords for a higher or lower key, the notes do not sound in the transposed key, they still sound in the original key.

 

Sure you can just transpose the notes of a part and change the time signature but you are left with the pain of going through all the Chord Symbols and deleting and changing them individually.

 

I tried to find a work around - I wanted to put a song from Dm into Gm for a singer. I had a song in Dm with chords all neatly sorted. I transposed in the staff style both treble and bass of the piano up 5 semitones and it looked pristine chord wise in new key of Gm

 

Then I copied the region and deleted all the notes - hoping to cut and paste the chords into a Gm region. But as soon as I pasted them in the concert part, they revert back to concert - so it did not work.

 

* * *

 

What we need is a feature similar to what you get when you use the Song Title feature. ie if you drag from the Inspector Song Title to the top of the score, it automatically names the chart with the title of your Logic Document/Project

 

But if you double click it, you get an option for 'Change into normal text object'

 

That is what we need for Chords in Logic - it would save so much hassle and time

 

Any thoughts?

 

Best

 

M S

[Music Spirit]

BTW - Jay answered my question .. Four and a half years ago

 

https://discussions.apple.com/message/4843079#4843079

 

But it is a real pain not being able to hear the arrangement in the correct key - particularly if you need to revoice the piano part because it is in a new key

[ski]

Hi MS,

 

Try this: with the piano track selected, open the middle area of parameters in the Inspector (instrument parameters). There's a transpose function there which you can set to transpose the MIDI notes feeding the instrument without changing the appearance of the score.

[Music Spirit]

Hi MS,

 

Try this: with the piano track selected, open the middle area of parameters in the Inspector (instrument parameters). There's a transpose function there which you can set to transpose the MIDI notes feeding the instrument without changing the appearance of the score.

HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!javascript:emoticon(':idea:')

 

This is serious Java Script emoticon celebration time .. my dear Professor!!!!

 

This is a more important breakthrough than the guys at Cambridge University did with Fermat's Theorem and should go in the Gold Dust Ski Book of Logic Tips.

 

And j'accuse.... ! all you Logic fundi's who for years have not been able to answer this question that I posted on the Apple Logic Forum in July 2007 .. yes all that time ago and here is the URL to prove it..

 

https://discussions.apple.com/message/4843079#4843079

 

This question has remained UNANSWERED until the good Prof Ski put his quiet meditative suggestion ...

 

* * *

 

Ha - OK got that out of the way well. Let me just summarise the process then:

 

 

TO TRANSPOSE AN EXISTING LEAD SHEET OR ARRANGEMENT WITH CHORDS INTO ANOTHER KEY:

 

1 -I have an existing arrangement in Dm complete and perfect but the singer wants it in Gm

 

2 - Duplicate the Staff Style of each existing Instrument and give it a new name ie Piano 1/3 in Gm - and transpose +5 steps in the appropriate treble and bass column

 

3 - Copy the Instrument region to a new instrument. Change the Dm Staff Style to Gm.. and experience a first thrill when all the chords appear transposed. But comfort yourself if it still sounds in Dm because you have Ski's solution in close reserve like wonderful weapon at the ready..

 

4 - Go back to the Arrange page and select that same instrument Piano Gm and then experience an even greater thrill as you select all the midi notes and go to the Inspector parameters...

 

5 - Transpose these up 5 steps as exactly per Ski's suggestion - you are now free to revoice some of the piano chords and hear them in the new key as opposed to in their original key ( despite the notes & chords being transposed)

 

6 - EUREKA!!! When you open the Score Editor and the part, not only do the midi notes all sound in Gm .. but the CHORDS stay the same. And you have not had to go through tedious pain I went through these last 4 and one half years to redo all the chords

 

QED

 

Gratitude and good night from Music Spirit LOL

[Music Spirit]

Ahem - slight problem.

 

Like Falstaff thinking that he had it made when Prince Hal became King, I raved before I tried it fully.

 

My sincere apologies to anyone annoyed by my previous post tale told by in idiot full of sound and fury and signifying.. nothing

 

Err. basically I still have the same problem.

 

That the Ski transpose method just makes the new score sound up 5 steps..

thanks Ski, I am sure you meant well buddy

 

Anyone want to have a go at this in practice? And post result

 

SOB!

 

PS NOTE

No emoticons at a time of such grief and disappointment

[Doug Z]

Why not transpose via the Region Parameters? Audio, notes and chord symbols all move to new key. If you do this you will not want to transpose in the staff style.....

[ski]

OK, this is confusing...

 

Including what Doug said, I'll lay out the principles...

 

• Transposing a staff style within the staff style editor only changes the appearance of the score. It does not transpose the notes in MIDI regions. It is a display-only function. Furthermore, transposing a staff style has no effect on the key of the piece. You set the key by entering a key signature in the global signature track (the lower of the two lanes in that track), or by entering a new key at the head of the first measure of any given part when viewed in the score editor, etc.

 

• Transposing an instrument (per my advice above) has no effect on the key of the piece or the notes in any MIDI region. It simply transposes the actual MIDI notes as they feed the instrument itself. So if you have a C3 and your instrument's transposition is +1, the instrument receives a C#3

 

• Transposing a region actually does change the MIDI notes contained in those regions.

 

So here's the procedure:

 

1) change the key of the piece to the new key

2) transpose all of your regions up by the required amount using the region transpose parameter

 

Voila, you're done (save for fixing any score markup). And if any of your regions are assigned transposing staff styles, those notes will transpose correctly without any need to edit the staff styles any further.

 

And this WILL transpose chord names; if you enter chords using the "CHORD" item from the partbox (click the "A" icon) then these transpose when you transpose a region via the region transpose parameter for each region.

 

Gotta fly, hope that helps tho.

 

[edited a few times for clarity]

Edited January 16, 2012 by ski

[ski]

To clarify something... originally I thought you needed to transpose instruments back down after you transposed them up somehow, and that's why I recommended that you use the instrument transpose feature. But really, none of that is necessary. Edited January 16, 2012 by ski

[Ashermusic]

To clarify something... I though you needed to transpose instruments back down after you transposed them up somehow, and that's why I recommended that you use the instrument transpose feature. But really, none of that is necessary.

 

OK, I am writing a book on the score editor and yet somehow you have managed to confuse even ME!

[ski]

It's not my fault; Logic made me this way.

[Music Spirit]

So here's the procedure:

 

1) change the key of the piece

2) transpose all of your regions up by the required amount

 

Voila, you're done (save for fixing any score markup). And if any of your regions are assigned transposing staff styles, those notes will transpose correctly without any need to edit the staff styles any further.

 

And this WILL transpose chord names. I just tried it... If you enter chords using the "CHORD" item from the partbox (click the "A" icon) then these transpose when you transpose a region.

 

Ski thanks for your trouble in explaining this - I can calmly and finally say that this problem is 100% SOLVED

 

My huge misunderstanding was not distinguishing between the REGION and the INSTRUMENT in the Arrange Window

 

The only time I ever use the Region part at the top of the Inspector is to switch on or off the Loop box for a region, or to name the Region. Otherwise the small triangle remains closed

 

All my Sturm und Drang was caused because I mistakenly thought that there were only 2 places you could transpose - ie in the Staff Style or in the Instrument itself.

 

In fact it is totally obvious to me now that there are 3 possible places to Transpose: the Staff Style, the Region and the Instrument all with different outcomes.

 

I wish someone had explained this back in July 2007 when I first asked the question...

 

But as Wm Shakespeare says: "Alls Well that Ends Well"

 

My deep and grateful thanks

 

M S

[Music Spirit]

I am writing a book on the score editor

 

Wonderful news!!!! I really look forward to it...

 

... do you accept 'feature suggestions/ topics? '

[ski]

Glad you got it sorted!

 

I am writing a book on the score editor

 

Wonderful news!!!! I really look forward to it...

 

From what I understand, it's going to be titled, "Dr. Strangescore: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Score Editor". Jay will be pictured on the inside flap of the dustjacket sporting his signature black leather glove and, to spice things up with a bit of a modern twist, a blinged-out monocle.

[Ashermusic]

I am writing a book on the score editor

 

Wonderful news!!!! I really look forward to it...

 

... do you accept 'feature suggestions/ topics? '

 

Sure, but do it soon as I am in the home stretch.

[Music Spirit]

... do you accept 'feature suggestions/ topics? '

 

Sure, but do it soon as I am in the home stretch.

 

What would be really useful (if you havent already done this) is an Appendix for those who have basically mastered the Score Editor but are looking for an Efficient Working Method - steps for creating different kinds of arrangements from scratch - for different common purposes - just exactly as you yourself would do it.

 

1 - eg How to do a Guitar part, How to do a Drum part, How to do a Piano part

 

2 - I would love to see a QT time video, or bullet point summary of exactly all the steps you go through if someone gives you an MP3 or track from a CD and you have to do a Three Horn + Rhythm Section arrangement of that song for a session.

 

3 - I am particularly interested in the transition from a linear arrangement - ie where you hear everything in the song from bar 1 to the end to the score arrangement and then to the part arrangement

 

eg is it viable to even do things that way? do you need to be able to hear the whole arrangement through from bar 1 to the end ..before you start cutting out sections and adding first and second time bars? ( At which point the Logic song will no longer sound like the actual arrangement.

 

Any kind of guidance on these working methods would be invaluable

 

* * *

 

FWIW - I tend to work in the way described above. If someone gave me a track to produce an arrangement I would

 

1 - Beat Map it first so the bars corresponded to the music

2 - Transcribe/play in the different lines (horns bass, keyboards etc)

3 - Quantize and clean up the midi etc

4 - Make a note on a piece of paper of the structure, rehearsal letters etc

 

Save this "Arrangement One"

 

5 - Then save the same document as "Arrangement Score"

6 - Here I would chop out the sections that repeat and create first and second time bars etc

( and the song would no longer play correctly) but the Score would start to look right

7 - When this was done I would save it as "Arrangement One - Piano" and do the piano part with Line breaks at the very end

8 - Then save 'Arrangement One - Piano' as 'Arrangement One - Trumpet'

cutting and pasting as much of the slurs, chords info etc

 

..and so on.

 

* * *

 

Remember you are talking to a guy that has been using Logic idiosyncratically by himself for years ( hence the confusion in a recent post about a Project as opposed to a Document)

 

But am very keen to learn and refine and change ... so looking forward to your book indeed.

[Ashermusic]

... do you accept 'feature suggestions/ topics? '

 

Sure, but do it soon as I am in the home stretch.

 

What would be really useful (if you havent already done this) is an Appendix for those who have basically mastered the Score Editor but are looking for an Efficient Working Method - steps for creating different kinds of arrangements from scratch - for different common purposes - just exactly as you yourself would do it.

 

1 - eg How to do a Guitar part, How to do a Drum part, How to do a Piano part

 

2 - I would love to see a QT time video, or bullet point summary of exactly all the steps you go through if someone gives you an MP3 or track from a CD and you have to do a Three Horn + Rhythm Section arrangement of that song for a session.

 

3 - I am particularly interested in the transition from a linear arrangement - ie where you hear everything in the song from bar 1 to the end to the score arrangement and then to the part arrangement

 

eg is it viable to even do things that way? do you need to be able to hear the whole arrangement through from bar 1 to the end ..before you start cutting out sections and adding first and second time bars? ( At which point the Logic song will no longer sound like the actual arrangement.

 

Any kind of guidance on these working methods would be invaluable

 

* * *

 

FWIW - I tend to work in the way described above. If someone gave me a track to produce an arrangement I would

 

1 - Beat Map it first so the bars corresponded to the music

2 - Transcribe/play in the different lines (horns bass, keyboards etc)

3 - Quantize and clean up the midi etc

4 - Make a note on a piece of paper of the structure, rehearsal letters etc

 

Save this "Arrangement One"

 

5 - Then save the same document as "Arrangement Score"

6 - Here I would chop out the sections that repeat and create first and second time bars etc

( and the song would no longer play correctly) but the Score would start to look right

7 - When this was done I would save it as "Arrangement One - Piano" and do the piano part with Line breaks at the very end

8 - Then save 'Arrangement One - Piano' as 'Arrangement One - Trumpet'

cutting and pasting as much of the slurs, chords info etc

 

..and so on.

 

* * *

 

Remember you are talking to a guy that has been using Logic idiosyncratically by himself for years ( hence the confusion in a recent post about a Project as opposed to a Document)

 

But am very keen to learn and refine and change ... so looking forward to your book indeed.

 

I think you are going to like my book

[Music Spirit]

From what I understand, it's going to be titled, "Dr. Strangescore: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Score Editor". Jay will be pictured on the inside flap of the dustjacket sporting his signature black leather glove and, to spice things up with a bit of a modern twist, a blinged-out monocle.

 

LOL! ..but this obliges you to don a Sylvester cat suit for your next MD conductor gig .. as per your avatar

[Music Spirit]

I think you are going to like my book

 

And I hope it inspires so many new purchases of Logic (just for the Score Editor) - that Apple commit huge funds for an update that includes all the items on our wishlist

[Doug Z]

I actually think that's Tom of the Tom and Jerry series...according to my memory of watching a lot of cartoons as a kid.

 

But Ski would look good in either - just hope he's be comfortable with the 4-finger gloves.

[Music Spirit]

OK lovers of the Score Editor.. and expert gurus. Here's my latest in the Transposition Saga and its in the form of request to Apple to improve the Score Editor in a crucial respect. So I am posting here for refinement.

 

Problem: When you transpose a lead sheet or part ( as per changing the whole key of an existing Arrangement, as per Ski's massive beam of light cast on the issue a few weeks ago - namely that you SELECT THE REGION in the Arrange inspector and transpose there, as opposed to the two other ways you could transpose)..

 

As I was saying the problem is that Logic does not recognise automatically and intelligently the new key - so if you are transposing from C to say Eb .. logic will interpret write C# in the new key as opposed to Db.

 

If it does this in the Score - it is less of a problem because you can Apple S select and similar C#s can be changed with one keystroke

 

BUT if it is the Chord Symbol C# that should be a Db chord .. then there is no easy way I know of except to change each •••• ing chord by hand yourself. ( YOu could have copied out the parts in quill and paper by then.. well maybe not quite)

 

So are we all agreed that we need in the next Score update this essential feature:

that Logic intelligently recognises and corrects according to a simple algorhtyhm all the incorrect sharps and flats of a given key.

 

~~~~~~~~~

 

I say to you Logic programmers that this would be a boon to any musical production where they get in a new singer who needs the chart redone in their key...

 

In fact when I think of it .. this is more important to Apple than the new iPhoneS in terms of needing fixes, no? LOL

[Doug Z]

there is no easy way I know of except to change each •••• ing chord by hand

 

So why not select chords and use the Attribute features of Enharmonic Shift or flats>sharps/sharps>flats?

 

And if I may, the transpose region suggestion initially came from this source - Ski recapitulated it in an excellent summary of ways to transpose.

[ski]

Thanks Doug.

 

To reiterate/clarify/etc.

 

Let's distinguish between transposing/transposition, and, setting the key. Starting with the simplest aspect first. (Note: what I'm about to describe is specific to MIDI regions with notes entered by playing in parts, step entry, or penciling in notes. I have no idea if what I've described below might affect green or blue apple loops because essentially I never use them).

 

Key: Logic defaults to C major as the key signature for all new projects. The key signature is a "display only" function, meaning that it only affects the way notes are named when viewed in the score editor. Changing the key signature at any time during production will never have the added effect of also transposing notes within MIDI regions.

 

Changing the key signature can be done in several ways:

 

• inserting a key signature in the score editor at the beginning of any region that spans 1 1 1 1 onward (at any time)

• setting the key in the global signature track at 1 1 1 1

• setting the key in the signature list at 1 1 1 1 (my least favorite method)

• multiple modulations (key changes) can be added at any point in a piece, and will never actually transpose notes

 

Transposition:

 

This term has several meanings in Logic. I'll cover the four that are germane to the subject of score prep...

 

1) Region-Based, Realtime Transposition: a function which non-destructively alters MIDI note data, such as the Transposition function available for each MIDI region individually. Select a region and look in the Inspector for this function (you'll also see realtime, non-destructive parameters for velocity and so on). When you set the Transposition function to a non-zero value, Logic will, in real time, transpose the MIDI note values contained in the region. The only place that the transposed notes are shown transposed is in the score editor. You can prove this for yourself by opening separate score, event, and piano roll editors. On any MIDI region, transpose the notes up a half step. You won't see any change in the latter two editors, but you will see the notes xposed up by a half step in the score.

 

Transposing a region in this way will also transpose any chords you entered in the score editor using the CHORD symbol from the partbox.

 

2) Global Transposition Track: setting a value other than zero in this track has the effect of changing the note names in all editors. These transpositions are not reflected in any region's transposition parameter. However, it has no effect on the displayed key signature. In other words, if a piece with a key signature set to be G major is transposed up a whole step (+2) in the global transposition track, the displayed key will remain as G major. This might seem confounding, but... it might be worth experimenting with this feature as a way to globally transpose an entire song. After using this function to create the transposition (for all parts simultaneously), simply change the KEY signature of the song as described above. Note that this feature will NOT transpose chord names entered using the CHORD symbol.

 

3) Score Editor: Staff Styles >Transpose: This is another "display only" function, intended solely for the purpose of accommodating transposing instruments. Setting a value for Transpose has the effect of changing the displayed note names as well as altering the key signature only in the score editor, and only for the region(s) to which the particular staff style is applied. Example: you're writing for flute, english horn, and piano. You write in the flute and e.horn parts, viewing them in concert pitch because both parts are using the Treble staff style. For printout, you change the Treble staff style so that it visually changes the notes in the score to be displayed up a 5th to accommodate the e.horn's transposition. However, you'll find that this also transposes up the flute part because they're sharing the same staff style. The way around this is to first duplicate the Treble staff style, name it English Horn, and set its transposition accordingly. Then make sure that only the e.horn parts are set to use the English Horn staff style.

 

Note: when you apply a transposing staff style to a region, it WILL transpose chord names entered using the partbox CHORD symbol.

 

4) Instrument Parameters > Transposition: if you open the middle box in the Inspector (instrument parameters) you'll find a Transposition function. Think of this as a function that intercepts the MIDI notes contained in a region, applies the transposition amount you've dialed in, and THEN sends those notes on to the plugin you're using. Setting a value for this Transposition function has zero effect on the notes seen in any of the editors, including the score.

 

Dinner bell's ringing, gotta go but HTH.

Edited July 21, 2012 by ski

[Doug Z]

Well there you go - score transposition explained!

 

The only comment I'd add is use the global transposition track with discretion if in your project you have audio, Apple Loops, or use the Global Chord track (this was buggy for a number of versions - seems to work now in Logic 9.1.x)

[Music Spirit]

Thanks Doug.

 

To reiterate/clarify/etc.

 

........

 

Dinner bell's ringing, gotta go but HTH.

 

Wonderful! Thanks Ski for your painstaking trouble explaining this.

 

If I was writing a Score Editor book I would give you a solo or two - hint hint to J A

[Music Spirit]

So why not select chords and use the Attribute features of Enharmonic Shift or flats>sharps/sharps>flats?

 

And if I may, the transpose region suggestion initially came from this source - Ski recapitulated it in an excellent summary of ways to transpose.

 

Indeed Doug - selecting all the chords and using that KC is the way to go...

 

and yes - I have re-written my UK PRS form to rightfully acknowledge your original transpose region suggestion. ( Though sometimes it takes a while for something to sink in... and while you laid the groundwork, Ski has a sort of british accent here which is easier for me clod ears to understand - no offense

 

best

 

M S

[Doug Z]

Uh, jolly good, chap

[Music Spirit]

There's just one extra issue to add here (have done nothing else but think about this since December )

 

Do try this at home:

 

1 - I have Lullaby of Birdland in Gm - a piano arrangement lead sheet. I want to transpose it to Bm

 

2 - Change the Region parameters + 4 semitones: the chords and the part transpose to Bm BUT it still sounds in Gm

 

3 - Transpose the Virtual instrument ( Logic Bosendorfer) + 4 semi tones. The part now sounds Bm

 

Here comes the problem:

 

With that region and instrument selected, if you play your keyboard ( to edit the notes) the pitch is TRANSPOSED so it sounds like you are playing in a completely different key. ie you want to play the transposed key to behave like it was in concert but of course the instrument is transposed.

 

You have to select another keyboard instrument which is not transposed in order to hear what notes you might want to edit to make the chart in the new key viable.

 

Then you have to carefully display the Score of the new part ( with appropriate links) so that it does not disappear when yo select the untransposed instrument to hear what your revoicings might be.

 

ie You cannot actually continue working on that transposed instrument that plays the the chart in the new key.

 

* * *

 

All of this would be completely solved if you could just Transpose the Chord Symbols independently of any other parameter

 

Somebody tell me its possible

[Doug Z]

I've read this four times, I'm still not understanding everything....

 

2 - Change the Region parameters + 4 semitones: the chords and the part transpose to Bm BUT it still sounds in Gm

 

Using the transpose function in the region inspector DOES change both the written and audio pitch of the performance.

 

Transpose the Virtual instrument ( Logic Bosendorfer) + 4 semi tones. The part now sounds Bm

 

To confirm, you're doing this in the EXS24 or in the track inspector?

 

I'm a bit lost obviously, but some thoughts...

 

Consider making a score set of your transposed and untransposed keyboard tracks - would make it easy to navigate and edit between the two.

 

Put a transformer in the environment to raise the keyboard pitch the 4 semitones - it will both sound and record that way.

 

Cut/Copy the chords to a separate track, transpose them. Go to MIDI > Region Parameters > Normalize. Copy and paste back into working track.

[Music Spirit]

Thanks Doug - havent been here for a while but I appreciate the suggestions .. will explore