IR Sample VS Synthesized IR, in Space Designer

[Devon8822]

I am having a hard time learning how to use space designer, its pretty complicated. I have some questions, you can hopefully help me with.

 

Whats the difference between IR Sample VS Synthesized IR?

 

Whats the difference between "volume env" and "filter env"

 

Why can I only use "density" when synthesized IR is on?

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Whats the difference between IR Sample VS Synthesized IR?

 

An IR (impulse response) is taken from using a wide-frequency burst of sound, recorded in a real space. Convolution reverbs, like Space Designer, then use that to create a reverb tail for any sound put through it.

 

A synthesized IR is an impulse response that has been programmed, ie. not a real space, but an virtual one.

 

Whats the difference between "volume env" and "filter env"

 

See this for volume envelopes (often referred to as ADSR, but not exclusively): http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul99/articles/synthsecrets.htm

 

Filter envelopes are basically EQ functions, and the manual explains them well: http://documentation.apple.com/en/logicstudio/effects/index.html#chapter=12%26section=4%26tasks=true

 

Why can I only use "density" when synthesized IR is on?

 

Because recorded IRs are captured from real spaces, so you cannot play with the effects of them as you can with artificial IRs, essentially.

[rone2him]

Good stuff... thanks Rev.

[Devon8822]

Thanks for the reply! I'm familiar with what convolution reverb is. So how is a synthesized IR different from normal digital reverb? is it basically he same, digital reverb, except made into a IR file type so it can be used with convolution reverb plug ins?

 

Every time I click on the synthesized IR button in space designer it seems to load a new waveform at random...

 

 

hmm i know about the volume envelope but not the filter envelope. Its supposed to be EQ? I dont see any options for EQing, in the filter env section, I only see mostly the same options as in the volume env section. Thats why I am confused. I have read most of that article for space designer in the logic studio manual but I'm still pretty lost with it, thats why I came here.

[Devon8822]

Also, whats the difference between decay time... (which is what I have read to be the control for how long the reverb is, and is the name of the control for that function on other reverbs) and the function "length" in space designer.

[Devon8822]

Couple more things, please help!

 

space designer is giving me the option for mono, mono -> stereo, and stereo... What is the middle one "mono -> stereo"?

 

What exactly does the plugin do when you setup a stereo reverb on a mono track? it makes two slightly different signals and hard pans them left/right??

[David Nahmani]

What is the middle one "mono -> stereo"?

 

mono input, stereo output.

 

What exactly does the plugin do when you setup a stereo reverb on a mono track? it makes two slightly different signals and hard pans them left/right??

 

It creates different reflections on the left channel vs on the right channel, much like a mono source such as a voice would do in a natural space, as the walls, furniture, etc... on one side is rarely the same as on the other side.

 

PS: I deleted your last question as I see you've now posted a new thread for it. Read Me before posting - Forum Guidelines (#3)

[Jope]

The synthesized IRs are generated by a virtual synthesizer that consist of a noise source, a filter with its own envelope and an amplifier controlled by another envelope. The noise generator produces something like white noise but has additionally a Density parameter which seems to be similar as the "Dirt" parameter in Ultrabeat's noise section. Lower Density means more "Dirt" or grainity of the noise. The shape of the peaks can also be changed.

So this synthesizer is capable of producing a decaying noise sound as if someone claps their hands in a large room - basically. You don't hear this sound directly, but it is used as an Impulse Response as would be a real recording.

BTW this is what you can do if you want to make your own IRs: Play with Synthesizers that have a Noise section and try to make the sound of "shot" or "clap" reverbs, bounce them and use them as an IR for SD.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

hmm i know about the volume envelope but not the filter envelope. Its supposed to be EQ? I dont see any options for EQing, in the filter env section, I only see mostly the same options as in the volume env section. Thats why I am confused. I have read most of that article for space designer in the logic studio manual but I'm still pretty lost with it, thats why I came here.

 

Well, hopefully Jope sorted you out as far as synthesized IRs go.

 

As for the filter envelope, the filter settings (knobs on the bottom-left of Space Designer) are standard frequency filter (EQ) types; high pass, band pass, and two different dB slopes of low pass.

 

Here's a brief explanation of EQ filters: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul01/articles/equalisers1.asp

 

For more detail, search for the filter types on Wikipedia.

 

The filter envelope "provides control of the filter cutoff frequency over time" (Logic Manual).

 

Here's an explanation of cutoff frequency and resonance: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct99/articles/synthsecrets.htm

 

So, once you've read up on filters, you'll know exactly how and why to use it!

[Red Robin]

Powerful as Space Designer is, I must say that it's interface leaves much to be desired. Overall it looks very cool but the GUI is very poor in that controls are too small and also graphics too small and pale. Apple are guilty of putting style before function on this one, in my opinion.

 

I've started to use Platinum Verb instead.

[ruari]

…controls are too small and also graphics too small and pale.…

 

You do know that you can click & drag the bottom right corner of Logic plug-ins in L9 to make them bigger?

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

I've started to use Platinum Verb instead.

 

Platinum Verb is a very different beast, and I'd be hard pushed to get the kind of room ambience you can with an IR. Not to mention speaker IRs...

[camillo jr]

I've started to use Platinum Verb instead.

 

Platinum Verb is a very different beast, and I'd be hard pushed to get the kind of room ambience you can with an IR. Not to mention speaker IRs...

 

+1

 

And if you really want to use an algo reverb, try the (free) on-board Apple AUMatrixReverb. It's really quite decent.

[Red Robin]

I've started to use Platinum Verb instead.

 

Platinum Verb is a very different beast, and I'd be hard pushed to get the kind of room ambience you can with an IR. Not to mention speaker IRs...

 

....Sure, but it also depends on the context of the track you're adding reverb to. I'm not saying that SpaceDesigner isn't good - I've used its presets many many times, I just dislike its interface.

 

@ camillo:

Thanks, I'll also check the AUMatrixReverb out.

I've also got Waves reverbs on my system I haven't tried yet.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

....Sure, but it also depends on the context of the track you're adding reverb to. I'm not saying that SpaceDesigner isn't good - I've used its presets many many times, I just dislike its interface.

 

I was just making the point that I wouldn't use Platinum Verb as an alternative to Space Designer, as they tend to produce quite different results.

 

Nothing wrong with Platinum Verb, I even like AVerb in the right context, but I don't see them as interchangeable. Different beasts, as I said.

 

Horses for courses, and all that.

[ruari]

I've started to use Platinum Verb instead.

 

Platinum Verb is a very different beast, and I'd be hard pushed to get the kind of room ambience you can with an IR. Not to mention speaker IRs...

 

+1

 

And if you really want to use an algo reverb, try the (free) on-board Apple AUMatrixReverb. It's really quite decent.

 

+1 for AUMatrixReverb, it's very easy to overlook just because it's free but it is surprisingly decent with lots of control over the reverb.

[fader8]

So how is a synthesized IR different from normal digital reverb? is it basically he same, digital reverb, except made into a IR file type so it can be used with convolution reverb plug ins?

No, traditional digital reverb plug-ins are modeled after their digital hardware counterparts. Generate early reflections with simple delays, feed them back through a bunch of recirculating delays and allpass filters to achieve the density of the late reverb. Everything happens after the fact.

 

Synthesized IR is generating an audio file beforehand of an oscillator whose frequency and amplitude envelope is being controlled by some impulse algorithm.

[Red Robin]

The bottom line for all the reverb science is very simple indeed....

 

Which reverb, regardless of how it's created etc etc, sounds best to you in your individual mix? How or where it's created is academic.

 

There are many reverb plug-ins available, so we are hardly handicapped for choice.

[ruari]

How or where it's created is academic.

 

Yes, but sometimes that can be part of the creative process too. I often make random synth patches, process with a bit of stereo delay, bounce that then load into Space Designer for a bit of bespoke IR action.

 

I've read about someone loading whale song into Space Designer then using that as a reverb for a piano.

 

I think convolution reverb is fantastic & has endless possibilities.

[Red Robin]

How or where it's created is academic.

 

Yes, but sometimes that can be part of the creative process too. I often make random synth patches, process with a bit of stereo delay, bounce that then load into Space Designer for a bit of bespoke IR action.

 

I've read about someone loading whale song into Space Designer then using that as a reverb for a piano.

 

I think convolution reverb is fantastic & has endless possibilities.

 

....Agreed - It's all part of the creative process

 

I've just finished remodelling a solo song I recorded originally in GarageBand in 2005 which had an 18 second reverb. I titled it "Moon Lullaby" because it sounds as if you are walking on the moon and on headphones it's guaranteed to lull you to sleep. I had quite a job getting the reverb peaks under control without losing the atmosphere.

 

Sorry, I've now forgotten what this topic was about.

[fader8]

How or where it's created is academic.

Sometimes how and where are very important. Hearing a sound in your head that you want to achieve and knowing whether you need a plate, spring, tank, etc., to achieve it, is a very useful skill. Also knowing when you can't achieve something synthetically. For example, I've re-recorded tracks in various spaces with big loudspeakers and spaced mic's. The most notable were the Grand Canyon and the Cathedral of St John the Divine in NYC. But recording through a guitar amp in a shower stall, or down a long hallway, can open up lot's of otherwise unachievable sounds.

[Red Robin]

Hearing a sound in your head and then trying to exactly match it is always likely be a compromise and possibly also lead to frustration (or everyone else involved thinking you're a pain to work with because you are so fussy). I don't like to work with musicians who are over fussy and never satisfied with what they do. Some female singers seem to be the worst at this. It's fine to be self critical and strive to improve but some take it too far and are never satisfied.

 

BUT... I can see that having a knowledge of what does what is useful. However, I instantly know what sounds right when I hear it and I usually don't have a clue or need to know what kind of reverb it is - I just either remember its preset or I Save one. Every song is different anyway. The bigger question is surely how does whatever reverb you choose effect the overall mix sound. Bussing a reverb helps in many cases too.

 

My point is simply that I personally am not inclined to get too involved in the science. But I respect that others are. 8)

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Hearing a sound in your head and then trying to exactly match it is always likely be a compromise and possibly also lead to frustration (or everyone else involved thinking you're a pain to work with because you are so fussy). I don't like to work with musicians who are over fussy and never satisfied with what they do.

 

What, like demanding the band travel to the Grand Canyon to record the backing vocals?

 

The bigger question is surely how does whatever reverb you choose effect the overall mix sound.

 

Exactly. And knowing how reverbs are created makes it quicker and easier to select which one is needed in any given situation.

 

My point is simply that I personally am not inclined to get too involved in the science. But I respect that others are. 8)

 

I only know a small fraction of the science behind DAWs (let alone recording in the wider sense), but I can tell you from experience that even a small amount of knowledge can facilitate, speed, and even become part of, the creative process.

 

Really, if you look a little into the history of electronic music (which, if you're using plugins or software instruments, is what you're making), it began largely with scientific inspiration, as much as musical inspiration (if you can even seperate them so distinctly. I'm not convinced you can).

[ruari]

Here's a paragraph from one of the books on my shelf for you to ponder:

 

Crafting the ambience of a production is considered one of the more important and challenging practises in mixing - ambience transforms a collection of dry recordings into an inspiring spatial arrangement that gives our mix much of it's character. The reverb controls let us mold the ambience & make creative decisions that can make our mix more cohesive & vigorous.

 

Many regard the creative process of crafting the ambience of the mix as a vital & most exciting process .

 

With that in mind, would you still say that taking the time to pick out or create the right reverb for the piece is being over fussy?

[Red Robin]

Here's a paragraph from one of the books on my shelf for you to ponder:

 

Crafting the ambience of a production is considered one of the more important and challenging practises in mixing - ambience transforms a collection of dry recordings into an inspiring spatial arrangement that gives our mix much of it's character. The reverb controls let us mold the ambience & make creative decisions that can make our mix more cohesive & vigorous.

 

Many regard the creative process of crafting the ambience of the mix as a vital & most exciting process .

 

With that in mind, would you still say that taking the time to pick out or create the right reverb for the piece is being over fussy?

 

....You misunderstand me if you think that's what I meant. And you have misrepresented my words by quoting them out of context of the rest of my sentence. To clarify, I wrote that some people took their search for perfection too far in matching what was in their head.

 

It goes without saying that anything I express in an internet forum is merely my opinion (and my opinions can be influenced and change).

 

I agree wholeheartedly with your book quote - It is indeed extremely important and as a player of acoustic instruments I am particularly aware of the power of reverb, delay, spread, phasing, panning, etc etc etc etc. Ambience rules!

 

As far as I'm concerned, the DAW is just as important a musical instrument as any other musical instrument - It's the conductor of the orchestra.

[Red Robin]

What, like demanding the band travel to the Grand Canyon to record the backing vocals?

 

.... Loving that idea! Any excuse to get out there, eh. Though I much prefer Canyon de Chelly.

 

The bigger question is surely how does whatever reverb you choose effect the overall mix sound.

Exactly. And knowing how reverbs are created makes it quicker and easier to select which one is needed in any given situation.

 

....Yep, but selecting which one to use doesn't have to rely on your knowledge of the science behind the reverb. Ears, ears are the key.

 

My point is simply that I personally am not inclined to get too involved in the science. But I respect that others are. 8)

I only know a small fraction of the science behind DAWs (let alone recording in the wider sense), but I can tell you from experience that even a small amount of knowledge can facilitate, speed, and even become part of, the creative process.

 

Really, if you look a little into the history of electronic music (which, if you're using plugins or software instruments, is what you're making), it began largely with scientific inspiration, as much as musical inspiration (if you can even seperate them so distinctly. I'm not convinced you can).

 

....I'm really glad to live in an era where Logic is so powerful and enabling. But I really don't care what it's history is or whether it was born out of science. All that matters is what the final mix sounds like.

 

EDIT: Hopefully my words don't sound as if I'm putting you down for being interested in the history

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

....Yep, but selecting which one to use doesn't have to rely on your knowledge of the science behind the reverb. Ears, ears are the key.

 

Yep, but like I said, knowledge is useful to know beforehand which options merit listening to.

 

....I'm really glad to live in an era where Logic is so powerful and enabling. But I really don't care what it's history is or whether it was born out of science. All that matters is what the final mix sounds like.

 

It's not just electronic music.

 

It took someone with a scientific and inquiring mind to first work out how to play a scale on a tube of wood or bone.

 

Logic (or, for that matter, synths/effects/recording/music in general) becomes far more enabling if you have at least a little knowledge of how it came to be.

 

I don't understand the position of willful ignorance, but each to their own!

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Hopefully my words don't sound as if I'm putting you down for being interested in the history

 

Not at all, but I wouldn't really class it as history, just function (the history part being function-over-time).

[ruari]

....You misunderstand me if you think that's what I meant. And you have misrepresented my words by quoting them out of context of the rest of my sentence. To clarify, I wrote that some people took their search for perfection too far in matching what was in their head.

 

Fair enough, I did misunderstand you then as I got the impression that you were suggesting that spending too much time selecting or creating the reverbs was being over fussy & that people would rather not work with someone like that.

 

I'm not trying to get onto an argument with you about it but in my experience it's the ones who take their search for perfection & quest for knowledge that little bit further who make it to the top, whatever their chosen game is.

 

I also appreciate not everyone wants to make it to the top of their game & are happy to be participating.

[Red Robin]

It's not just electronic music.

 

It took someone with a scientific and inquiring mind to first work out how to play a scale on a tube of wood or bone.

 

Logic (or, for that matter, synths/effects/recording/music in general) becomes far more enabling if you have at least a little knowledge of how it came to be.

 

I don't understand the position of willful ignorance, but each to their own!

 

....I don't think I'm being wilfully ignorant but merely challenging other points of view which seem to rely so much on studying the science - Putting it before the art - Though neither is wrong. I am ignorant inasmuchas (Mexican word?) my knowledge is limited, but nobody knows it all and neither can they know it all!

 

I don't understand how Logic etc becomes more enabling if you have a little knowledge of its history, but that's another topic. Logic Express 7 was my first contact with the alien and I don't remember what that was like in any detail.