Polyrhythms in Logic

[BITbyBIT]

Hello, Logic Pro Help community,

I need to some guidance on programming polyrhythms in Logic, every attempt I've made so far hasn't worked. I don't understand by what degree one has to adjust the tempo of one of the rhythms in order to achieve the correct effect, and more importantly how to actually go about adjusting the tempo of a given channel without changing the global tempo - could anyone lend me a hand?

Also, what's the difference between 7:2 and 2:7? Is it that the 2 is sped up to match the 7 in 7:2 and the reverse in 2:7?

Thanks to all.

[steveH]

Hi... If you're talking about poly tempos ... Logic doesn't do it. Logic uses a global tempo and it's individual tracks follow the master (global) tempo.

 

That being said, you can create some very cool polyrhythmic and poly-tempo-like effects by slight changing (compressing or expanding) the length of both audio (in flex mode) and midi regions and then looping them! Try it!

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

You can easily create polyrhythms in Logic.

 

The "correct effect" depends entirely on what rhythms you want to combine. Reading up on time signatures and doing a little maths is all that's needed.

 

Multiples of 2 and 3 are easiest, as Logic's grid works in those factors.

 

If you're talking about different tempi playing simultaneously, then follow Steve's advice on using Flex, or simply bounce to audio at different tempi and combine to taste.

 

Maybe a linking to a video or something, to show us exactly what you're trying to do, would help.

[BITbyBIT]

I'm just trying to do polyrhythms like 7/2, I've got it going at 60bpm on my metronome and it sounds great. I cannot seem to transfer that idea to my project.

It just comes out as a mulitmeter, because I don't know what to adjust the tempo of the 7 to and of course, unless I bounce to audio from a separate instance of Logic, I can't do that in the first place.

I'm getting so frustrated. If there was a working, intuitive quantise option for things like this, I wouldn't need to do all this larking about. I can hardly believe a concept as ancient as polyrhythms doesn't exist on a professional DAW.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Unless I'm not getting something, you would just have to set the time signature to 7 beats per bar, and place the "2" beats at 1 and the off-beat between 3 and 4.

 

Not sure why you need to adjust the tempo.

[BITbyBIT]

I think you're thinking of multimeter/polymeters, which involve playing the two meters over one another at the same speed. This fantastic Irishman explains the difference fairly well:

I want to create Polyrhythms, which are achieved by playing 2 meters at different speeds so that they both fit within the same bar length. It creates a hideously syncopated rhythm. I then plan on using that polyrhythmic phrase on one instrument while the other plays in a different meter but at the same speed, thus creating a polyrhythm nested within a polymeter.

[David Nahmani]

I want to create Polyrhythms, which are achieved by playing 2 meters at different speeds so that they both fit within the same bar length.

Sounds to me like that's exactly what Rev Juda's suggestion would create: one bar of 2/4 on one track, and one bar of 7/4 on another track, playing together, with the bars having the same length.

 

Have you tried it?

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Yes, I fully understand the difference between polyrhythmic and polymetric music.

 

Simultaneous tempi in a piece is "multitemporal": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multitemporal_music

 

Here's an example of what I think you're trying to achieve:

 

I've created a simple 7 against 2 polyrhythmic beat on a drum kit. The hats (on keys F#1, A#1 and C3) are playing 7/8, while the kick and snare (C1 and D1) are essentially playing a 2/2 beat (see bottom pic).

 

For the polymetric part, I created a bassline in 5/8 (see middle pic).

 

As you can see (top pic), it takes 5 bars of 7/8 before the 7/8 and 5/8 meters begin a bar on the same beat. Logic makes this much easier, because you don't have to do the maths, just repeat the phrases until they line up. If you were working it out on paper, you'd have to find the lowest common denominator (35 beats in this case, which is 5 bars of 7).

 

I've also included .mp3s so that you can see it in action in Logic. The bpm is 120, the time signature is 7/8.

 

None of this involves different tempi.

PolyrhythmMP3.zip

Edited December 9, 2011 by Rev. Juda$ Sleaze

[BITbyBIT]

Ah, that's exactly the ticket, thank you so much, Sir and my apologies for questioning you. I tend to think a little backwards and that visual aid was really on the money. I don't suppose this is the way in which I would go about making any such polyrhythm? Change the numerator of the time signature to the larger number (in this case 7) and...actually how does one work out where the other beat falls on the grid? I want to make sure I know how to apply this to every situation, so I never again have to bother long-suffering, knowledgeable people like yourself about it.

[ski]

One way to work out the timings (without having to do any math) is to create various kinds of "tuplets" within the score editor using the N-tuplet symbol. Here's a basic outline for how you'd do this...

 

Below is a screenshot of the score editor where I began by entering two notes, one in the treble, one in the bass, both on the downbeat. Starting with the treble note, I applied the N-Tuplet symbol from the partbox and set it to be 5:4, quarter notes. After closing the N-Tuplet dialog box, Logic displays four "placeholder" rests after the note. You are now free to pencil in notes where those rests occur, and you'll have a 5:4 quarter note figure. But before I did that, I used the N-Tuplet symbol on the bass note and set it to 7:8. Again, Logic provides "placeholder" rests which you can fill in with notes.

 

Once you fill in all the notes, you'll have a 5:4 against 7:8 polyrhythmic figure within a single region!

 

For the most part, the notes you pencil in will be equally spaced apart, so you don't have to work out the actual timings. But you should check the timing afterward anyway to make sure it all sounds right.

[ruari]

One way to work out the timings (without having to do any math) is to create various kinds of "tuplets" within the score editor using the N-tuplet symbol.

 

Top tip, thanks Ski

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

I don't suppose this is the way in which I would go about making any such polyrhythm? Change the numerator of the time signature to the larger number (in this case 7) and...actually how does one work out where the other beat falls on the grid?

 

For polyrhythms that have a common factor of 2 or 3, you can work it out with the piano roll.

 

For more complex ones you would need to use the score editor, but as Ski said, it's an easier operation in the score editor anyway.

 

...so I never again have to bother long-suffering, knowledgeable people like yourself about it.

 

No bother! Anything I can do to help get our culture out of our 4/4 duldrums is a pleasure

[BITbyBIT]

Thanks so much, guys I've whacked that 7:8 idea in in 4/4 as a blast beat and it seems to be working fine.

However, I've attempted to write the 7:2 in score view and it just won't work, All the notes I drag become quarters or minims, am I misunderstanding yet another level of this? It seems like the measure also has something to do with it. I'm so confused, why can't I understand this?

Edit: Realised all I needed to do was change the eighth notes in the 7:8 to make 7:2. I'm still worried about my ability to do this from scratch in any given situation, though.

[Eric Cardenas]

I have another option that does not involve the Score Editor.

 

1. Create 2 regions, one that is 5 quarter notes in length and the other 7. (pic1)
   
2. Stretch the regions to one bar each.
   
3. Merge (pic2,3)

[ruari]

I have another option that does not involve the Score Editor.

 

1. Create 2 regions, one that is 5 quarter notes in length and the other 7. (pic1)
   
2. Stretch the regions to one bar each.
   
3. Merge (pic2,3)

 

I love it, another top tip so easy to do as well.

 

This wasn't even my question but I'm getting a lot out of it 8)

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

This wasn't even my question but I'm getting a lot out of it 8)

 

Me too!

[magwa101gmail.com]

This post is still useful! I just made a bunch of polyrhythm and polymetric metronomes for myself using the "count quarters, stretch to 1 bar, merge" technique, perfecto!

[ValliSoftware]

I have another option that does not involve the Score Editor.

 

1. Create 2 regions, one that is 5 quarter notes in length and the other 7. (pic1)
   
2. Stretch the regions to one bar each.
   
3. Merge (pic2,3)

 

Wow, this is a great way to make polyrhythm patterns in Logic and if you "Make Groove Template" your polyrhythm midi region, you can quantize other tracks to this polyrhythm.

So now everything will be "in sync".

I just created a little demo and wow, it turn out pretty cool.

[Tankfield]

I did a track with a polyrhythmic breakdown using just Apple loops.

 

I put 7 or 8 perc loops on different tracks, cut them all to different lengths and then looped them. (I cut them on the beat, but somewhere other than the bar end.)

[Mr. Chris]

This is an ancient post, but I don't think I saw this answer, so here goes. There's a very simple formula to determine the number of beats you need. You take the two polyrthyms, say 2/2 and 6/8 and you first adjust them to have the same denonimator. Usually its best to do this by meeting the one with the highest denominator. So 2/2 becomes 8/8. Then multiply the denominators. So from 6/8 and 8/8  take 6 x 8 = 48  1/8 beats. You can further subdivide as needed.