DolmensDude Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 see thread over at discussions.apple.com https://discussions.apple.com/message/16958346#16958346 to put it likely, I'm really *tweaked* about this... everything on this rig is 64-bit clean in terms of MIDI, 64-bit kernel... and *nothing* else is having this problem, only the new version of MainStage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n6smith Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 FWIW.. Using 64bit MS 2.2 (upgraded from 2.1.2) with 10.7.2, Motu Ultralite here and no issues with Midi... In fact I used MS extensively last night and this morning and it ran smoothly throughout. I think this is probably an issue with your setup/drivers not being fully compliant.. as I am not seeing any reports from anyone else with the exception of a 'doubtful' one who also uses custom drivers.. that was posted in your thread on Apple Support.... Time to contact Focusrite and ask them ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmm42 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 FWIW.. Using 64bit MS 2.2 (upgraded from 2.1.2) with 10.7.2, Motu Ultralite here and no issues with Midi... In fact I used MS extensively last night and this morning and it ran smoothly throughout. I think this is probably an issue with your setup/drivers not being fully compliant.. as I am not seeing any reports from anyone else with the exception of a 'doubtful' one who also uses custom drivers.. that was posted in your thread on Apple Support.... Time to contact Focusrite and ask them ... I am sure Apple is more than willing to fix/work-around that issue, once they know about it. But it should also be understandable, that it is completely impossible to test all 3rd party MIDI hardware and drivers before a release. So far this issue seems to affect 2 people, one with a MIDISPORT 8x8/s, which M-Audio no longer sells and which uses custom drivers. No wonder that Apple missed that one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolmensDude Posted December 11, 2011 Author Share Posted December 11, 2011 guys... all of this stuff is *current*... All 64-bit drivers running on a 64-bit kernel. They're clean. If I had something that wasn't up-to-snuff, and it didn't work in something else... Okay... I'd retire it. You should see my write-off on Yamaha mLan stuff. I got rid of that stuff because it was never going to be 64-bit clean... Remember, the new release of Logic, released the same day as this version of MainStage, *does* work, as does, Ableton Live, and the previous version of MainStage. The only thing *not* working is v2.2. Focusrite likely not the problem, because I disabled it completely and MainStage still wouldn't start up. Ditto Yamaha, novation... No error messages on the console log either. What I wish I could do is fresh install this puppy... but then I'd have to start up about the Mac App Store... if I delete an app from an iOS device, I can just reinstall it from the App Store. Silly Mac App Store, after trashing the MainStage app insists that's it's installed... Just messed up... I'm sure it'll get fixed someday... I'm a good customer, adamant about how good this is normally... I just don't get why they never issued a fix to the EVB3 sustain pedal bug... Glad it's working for you - wish it was that way here too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n6smith Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Drivers being fully compliant and being current.. are two different things... I had an issue with a Scanner driver that was current but not fully compliant and once Apple did an upgrade of the OS the driver behaved erratically until, in this case Canon, released a new ( & more) compliant driver! The problem with some drivers is even if you turn off the equipment, the driver itself is still running and if it is causing some issue then it will continue to do so until either; A) It gets updated... B) The User uninstalls the driver completely... The same applies to certain compliant hardware too... where it is compliant but only until something else gets updated and then it's level of compliancy is shown to be poor... It's a crap shoot... and anyone's guess at this time, what is the root cause.. but again, all I can tell you is that it's not a general problem with MS so it is likely to be something specific with your setup, maybe interacting with a change in MS... that is causing the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlosUnderground Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 I don't understand why Apple released this new version. Just leaving 2.1 with bugs so silly as a sustain pedal problem? Why not update 2.1 to Logic 9 level, and work on v3, and releas the same day as Logic X? I don't use EB3, but I imagine lots of people do, so making people pay for a function that was supposed to work to begin with is just ludocris. Also, being able to map hardware to parameters without screen controls is great, but this should have been the case to start with, as with Logic. $30 bucks ain't a fortune, but it kind of feels like a slap in the face. Imagine buying a car, the brakes don't work! You go to the dealer and they say," we got the new model today, and they fixed the brakes. All you have to do is Buy It!" C'mon man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herr gunstig Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 I'm not having any problems, but then again I'm still using a couple of MT4 and an AMT8. They just won't die! My Ultralite seems to work fine too though, as does my PCR800 (which uses custom drivers). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolmensDude Posted December 12, 2011 Author Share Posted December 12, 2011 WORKAROUND: start up MainStage v2.1.3, leave it running without a concert loaded. start up MainStage v2.2 close MainStage v2.1.3 ========================================== pretty serious kludge... as for compatibility. if the manufacturer says their driver is 10.7.2 compatible, then it is, unless Apple changed the game for this new version of MainStage. If they changed the requirements, where is that documented? Then everyone would know where to look to solve this problem. If every other program on this machine works, and the new MainStage version *doesn't*, from a troubleshooting point of view, one should look at MainStage as the culprit... Sorry, I've been doing technology projects for 30 years now... The anomaly behavior here happens with MainStage v2.2, nothing else... So unless there is some documented new requirement from MainStage, it's their problem to look at and diagnose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 The problem with some drivers is even if you turn off the equipment, the driver itself is still running and if it is causing some issue then it will continue to do so until... Ah, this takes me back to the OS9 days, when you could easily save different configurations with the extensions manager... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n6smith Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Michael, You are banging your head against a brick wall.... trying to blame MS for your issue when, as I and others have pointed out.. this may not be the case. Again, just because a manufacturer says something, doesn't make it so... I cannot tell you how many times I've heard this from companies about their equipment/drivers only to find out later after they "update something" that this plainly wasn't so... Being compatible with Lion 10.7.2 doesn't mean it is fully compliant with MS.. Just because something works with other programs does not mean it is the fault of one program that it doesn't work with... It could be that this one program requires something of the device that the others don't.. and in doing so exposes an issue with it's compliancy. But more than anything else....If it was an issue with MS and nothing to do with anything else.. then why doesn't it affect everyone else? It could be a combination of issues coming together.. caused by your specific equipment/driver combinations in tandem with whatever changes were made to MS that has brought about/exposed this issue. It could also be a problem with the current version of MS that is only exposed when using a specific combination of hardware/software/drivers that in your case, matches your own setup... Both scenarios are equally possible.... but to simply blame MS at this stage.. is not a smart move before you have eliminated other possibilities. You can carry on banging your head here and elsewhere.. but until you start looking in the right places for the cause of the issue you are wasting your time and breath.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolmensDude Posted December 12, 2011 Author Share Posted December 12, 2011 Let's stick to facts here. if there is a new requirement for MainStage v2.2, where is it documented? Being compatible with Lion 10.7.2 doesn't mean it is fully compliant with MS. where is there a document describing what makes something fully compliant with MS. The previous manual says that MS reacts to standard MIDI messages, but not SysEx. According to the release notes, apparently MS can deal with SysEx now, but what *exactly* can or can't happen, not documented. In this particular test case, we're not even talking about responding to MIDI events, as the app doesn't get past its own startup/setup phase. There are lots of changes in the new MainStage. I purchased this software on the Apple Mac Store. Where's the (updated) manual? There isn't one. Without documentation, there's no way to know what exactly is going wrong here... there just is no idea what's wrong here, is it MainStage or something that's causing MainStage to hang... but... fact remains, it's the new version of MainStage that's acting flakey, if I regression test the behavior of all my other apps, they're doing what they were doing before, exactly as they were before... From a functionality point of view, they all would "pass". The "configuration" of app, underlying drivers, OS, all these components would "pass". What's failing? the new version of MainStage in a configuration that "passes" in all other tests... So... what's new in MainStage that's triggering this? No way of knowing. Until there's documentation to fall back on... only Apple can say what's going on here. I have a fallback scenario, using v2.1.3 with a known-bug for EVB3 sustain that Apple chose not to fix even though they released a fix for the same problem in Logic. This problem was introduced by Apple in version 2.1.3, (also) a question of bad testing. I also have a workaround, start version 2.1.3, then start version 2.2, and then close version 2.1.3. Think I'm going to put this on my live rig just yet? Nope. And yes, I'd like to see the manual for version 2.2 please, then... we can see if there's something documented that all these vendors, MOTU, Yamaha, Novation, M-Audio, Behringher, FocusRite... all seemingly need to fix... for everyone not having this problem, great! and as for banging my head against the wall. yeah, that's one of my better traits!!! (but I'm finished tracking down this problem. It's something Apple has to look at or provide documentation so that others can look at it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolmensDude Posted December 12, 2011 Author Share Posted December 12, 2011 we have a manual. http://help.apple.com/mainstage/mac/2.2/en/mainstage/usermanual/MainStage%202%20User%20Manual%20(en).pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorste Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 The Mainstage help menu now has updated manuals for ver. 2.2. They're in the Mainstage>Help Menu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolmensDude Posted December 12, 2011 Author Share Posted December 12, 2011 The Mainstage help menu now has updated manuals for ver. 2.2.They're in the Mainstage>Help Menu thanks, found that right before you posted, MainStage has to be running in order to find this, which is of course, the problem In my version 2.2's help, choosing Release Notes brings me to a 404 error on Apple's site.. Is this working for you? I just wanna know if this is a broken link for others as well. I've seen the release notes via another route already. If the link is dead for others as well, it's a bug, albeit a small one... search on Apple website for current manuals was fruitless. http://support.apple.com/manuals/#mainstage (Apple should update this info) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolmensDude Posted December 13, 2011 Author Share Posted December 13, 2011 Apple has contacted me about this. Super. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Apple has contacted me about this. Super. ....and? Did they help you resolve it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolmensDude Posted December 13, 2011 Author Share Posted December 13, 2011 ...and? Did they help you resolve it? no, I've just sent them everything they requested. I'm just glad they followed up. We'll see what happens further, and go from there. Am *really* curious what's causing this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolmensDude Posted December 15, 2011 Author Share Posted December 15, 2011 SOLVED by another user over on discussions.apple.com Had the same issue. We have some similar hardware. For him, a Yamaha KX8 was sending out MIDI clock messages, he turned that off and the problem went away. For me, my Yamaha ES8 was sending out MIDI clock as well, turned it off, and after 2 tries, MainStage 2.2 is starting up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n6smith Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Great news... So, it was something specific to your setup.. which is what we suspected... The thing that caught me out was that you said earlier you had disabled your Yamaha... Focusrite likely not the problem, because I disabled it completely and MainStage still wouldn't start up. Ditto Yamaha, novation... so I assumed you had turned it off and unplugged it... (Yes, I know what they say about assuming anything! ) Anyhow.. that's one to add to the list of possible causes and fixes.. Thanks for the feedback and solution for your particular issue.. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolmensDude Posted December 16, 2011 Author Share Posted December 16, 2011 about turning off the Yamaha and that this still happened? Yeah, that one bothered me too... but it's still really "touchy"/"sensitive" to some things that it wasn't before... For starters, an inbound clock isn't supposed to hang MainStage, so what I'm doing is still actually a workaround. While v2.2 is running, Novation's Automap cannot be started, otherwise MainStage hangs like before.... What I noticed is that I had to do a reboot/restart of my Mac after hangs of MainStage due to the MIDI clock being output, ditto Automap... While I was trying to isolate this, and there were A LOT of combinations, to try, apparently I didn't restart the Mac after every possible change. The other thing is... which I had also posted, is that I was able to get into MainStage twice, actually played it from the Yamaha (even though it was sending clock info as it always did), so... it's possible... I still think there's a bug/situation/sensitivity/issue for Apple to look at, but at least I can start the new version and start poking around in it enough to see if I'm going to move my live rig to v2.2 (which I'd really like to do for the EVB3 sustain pedal fix!) Greetings, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n6smith Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Michael, I am wondering if the root cause of your issue is the fact that they did make some changes to how Midi is handled and again, if something isn't fully compliant.. like a Midi interface.. or a midi controller.. while it didn't matter with earlier versions of MS.. now it does because it is affected by the specific changes made to MS (Or in fact to Logic as i gather a few people are having a similar issue that has been resolved in the same way) I think this is, in reality.. the bug/sensitivity/situation/issue you are referring to... because it only affects some people.. so it has to be something specific in their setup that is, in part, the cause.. or the symptom because of the changes made, of some form of incompatibility or non compliance in part, of something 'attached' to or used with their computer. Frustrating as hell I'm sure... but as I said earlier.. I'm not willing (yet at least) to put the blame firmly at Logic's/MS's feet.. as i suspect there are other factors that might well be beyond the control of the Logic/MS programming, that are causing such issues... and that might well be badly written or poorly implemented 3rd party device drivers and/or 3rd party firmware/software/hardware that is 'supposed' to be fully compliant. Btw.. I'm hearing that the EVB3 bug has truly been squashed at last.. It took them a while but it does seem they finally fixed one of the more annoying bugs in MS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolmensDude Posted December 16, 2011 Author Share Posted December 16, 2011 you really must love Apple... I am wondering if the root cause of your issue is the fact that they did make some changes to how Midi is handled and again, if something isn't fully compliant.. like a Midi interface.. or a midi controller.. or a non-compliancy in MainStage? why not, everybody's human? and all the results point to v2.2... I'm not willing (yet at least) to put the blame firmly at Logic's/MS's feet.. uh... yeah... that's a bit obvious! it's okay... I'm more in the direction of "grumpy old men"... like these guys a lot, most of the time they do amazing things, but sometimes... whoops! The EVB3 bug. after years and years of working one way, they introduce a bug in both Logic and MainStage. then they fix the bug in Logic but not in MainStage... eventually they fix in in MainStage, but only in a paid update? Not chique... and to be honest, inexcusable. An incoming MIDI clock (which MainStage is supposed to be able to handle otherwise it can't follow tempo) from an "A" manufacturer on one of the most sold synths of the last decade, only starts to crash MainStage since this new version? while everything else, including Logic 9.1.6 still works? MainStage changed, not the rest. That *has* to put the focus on MainStage. I've got 30 years+ of software/technology development projects (into the billion US$ plus range) that says "Apple, *you* have to look at this") MIDI clock has been around since MIDI 1.0 (I'm old enough to know and used to be a consultant on design, user interface questions and sound design to "A" synth manufacturers back when MIDI 1.0 was all we had). I'm certain this is just a missed test case in Apples development and test environments... probably similar to how that EVB3 sustain pedal bug could have possibly ever slipped through the system before being released to the public). I hope they do better on this in the future. And... thanks for you interest in this problem. Seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GabrielWolff Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 For me this started happening with all the suite's programs when I downloaded the PACE drivers, as requested every time when starting up any of the Suite's programs. Uninstalling the drivers didn't solve the issue So I'm stuck with a multi-GB suite that won't show me anything except for a few [admittedly nicely made] splash screens, hanging when Initializing MIDI... Was the issue solved for you folks? G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolmensDude Posted December 20, 2011 Author Share Posted December 20, 2011 workaround. My Yamaha ES8 sends MIDI clock data by default. Turn this off and MainStage no longer hangs. I consider this a workaround because an incoming MIDI clock is not supposed to hang MainStage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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